Mike Birbiglia, The Sleepwalking Comedy Giant

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Little boys and girls wombats and squirrels.

This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show weird is my job to deconstruct world-class performers tease out the habits for teens favorite books Etc that you can use in your own life and I speak in hushed tones, cuz I'm in the airport and I don't like to yell and scream like a lunatic 1 in the airport last I get a boot on my head.

So the guests Mike Birbiglia.

I wanted to interview Mike for years.

You can find him on Twitter at birbigs b i r b i g s.

He's one of the best known and busiest working comedians in the world with behind and in front of the camera his stand-up blend what elements different elements theater film storytelling in comedy.

This is because he's been very deliberate and studying different crafts and tying them together and this is reflected in his string of successes which include sold out tours as a solar theater act.

You just did a hundred cities not too long ago has Best Line books off Broadway shows feature film TV and much more.

In the last few years his workers start to cure on This American Life, which is an incredible show and podcast for those interested or he be any meaningful collaboration with the host of your Ira Glass would love to have on the podcast some point.

Currently.

Mike is the creative writer and star of the new film Don't Think Twice, which is hilarious heart-rending just a wonderful watch.

I saw it an early preview copy and it blew me away so I can highly recommended.

I don't say that lightly.

It's a great movie if you've struggled with no sense of feeling like a failure hoping for Success achieving some degree of success and then getting more or less than you bargained for.

It's it's incredible journey.

So I do recommend a check that out and had to pull all of this stuff off.

He seems to be juggling Milling projects.

I am find out we dig into it.

So without further Ado, please enjoy Mike Birbiglia Mike welcome to the show.

It's very exciting.

And And Timely for me to Bonita Stephen immersing myself and it is affecting my life in real time.

So speaking with you is almost a virtual reality experience will I think this is a mutual feeling since I've been a consumer in fan of your comedy for so long and I started thinking after Elon Musk hints that we could be logically speaking players and some sophisticated future entities video game that this might all be a virtual reality.

I'll be in a hurry if I wanted to bring us.

Back to the Earth least as we understand it for a second.

I am number of mutual friends of ours Brian.

Koppelman, of course famous screenwriter all-around good guy Chris sacca, both of whom has been on the podcast before because I've spent some time with you and I wanted to ask the number of things that they brought up.

So the first was from compliment and I asked Bruce specifically does he have any obsessions, you know of outside of comedy and one word back Pizza.

Can you elaborate on this please? It's embarrassing obsession is it's the simple, you know, it's it's baked bread and cheese and sauce is how simple of a human being I am.

I have a joke for my first album two drink Mike, which is I love pizza so much I would marry it but it would just be an elaborate ploy to eat her whole family at the reception.

I love pizza.

I think it's just you know, it's the Simplicity of it.

It's from my childhood.

It's it is there's no deeper meaning other than my own by the time my mom raised me.

That's right in saying that he was raised by my mother and father but my mother was around more often.

She really kind of gave up on parenting and ordered pizza a lot like she didn't want to cook that much.

And so she just now I figure well in my adulthood and might as well be a connoisseur and have good pizza.

So what now qualifies for you is good pizza if you could have one type of pizza delivered to you And I'm sure there are many options.

But are you at a deep dish or you a new york-style thin-crust what we talkin? Yeah.

Yeah.

I think there's one is New York New York thin crust coal oven and places like Arturo's and lucali lujo.

And then I have this odd, you know from my childhood just in Massachusetts.

There's a ton of Greek Pizza just said there's all these sort of greasy Greek pizzerias that I grew up on and and so I have a fondness for that like so if I'm driving through New England, so I'm driving to my parents house and I'll stop in Connecticut.

I like the side of the road in like a suburb of Connecticut and just get pizza in the other one, too.

Characterizes Greek Pizza other than the fact that it's made by Greeks.

Is it the same ingredients or do they do anything particularly? There's a million series on Pizza.

Most people say it's based on the water.

There's books and books written by pizza, but people say it's it's it's water-based.

What makes it good, which is why for whatever reason New York.

Pizza is better in my opinion and most places and actually bring that up.

I think I would have these readings for my film don't think twice at my house to Workshop the film script the way that I would work.

Shy work on my stand-up and I would always have I would have over people like Brian koppelman Mike Weber, you know, like the Lord came and I would always have the best people I can have the collie or I'd have luetzow and Play the beginning of the reading the script might be bad.

But at the end we're all going to eat pizza in such a young age people.

I was like screenwriters or anyone who needs feedback on their work to just invite people to something where you give them something to give them food.

Give them ice cream give them pizza and and trying to solicit their feedback because feedback.

I think it's the most valuable thing you can have for your right to let's let's talk about will to think since they came up via the movie.

First of all, I was very excited to get a sneak peek.

I suppose Early Access Vimeo and I'm only half hour in but I've loved it.

I watched it actually with a friend and also for a podcast guest Cal fussman who wrote what I learned column or a large portion of four decades for Esquire and we both After watching the Porsche me watch because I had to jump on the phone to do this interview.

Number one reason why you should skip ahead to see the end so that you can discuss it with Mike and I said no no.

No, I want to actually I want to watch the rest of the movie the entire movie.

So I was very pleased and relieved that the movie is really really good and it it made me I'm going to die dresser cuz it's my style but sure many moons ago actually took one and it was the only improv class at this place called Beau Bonneau casting in San Francisco.

I remember it brought back memories and it made me want to go take improv classes as well as go see good improv.

But so that's to the the you don't think twice I would highly recommend people check out and Sokka loves it as well make it better by the way and it gets better.

I mean, I'm not even I'm not even through can act one nice that you haven't seen the whole thing because I can dance around things.

And so that the listener Don't aren't spoiled on things and but but yet get better one of the comments that came up from cow and I concurred was at the writing was really good.

So I want to talk about the work shopping.

What is the format? Like, could you explain how you Workshop the material? And then in what at what stage do you work shopping? I can see if this idea of my first home was called Sleepwalk with me and it some people want to see it.

It's on Netflix.

It's easy to find end.

And after I made it, I I went back to improvising at UCB theater after years of kind of taking time off for nonprofit studied in college is Sarah in the reason I went back to his because you should be ups and the reason I went back to his because I realize that so many of the principles probably the same the principles that that you say at the beginning of the movie that you probably studied in your class say, yes, it's all a The group don't stink, you know just do and all those principles are really what got me through directing a film which was the hardest thing by far I've ever been in my entire life and I after I dropped it I was like how the hell did I even live through that? Like, how did I even stay alive? And I realize that it was all these things in improv at a time until I feared back into doing improv in one night.

My wife is brilliant came to one of my improv shows and she made his observation and I thought it was wonderful, which is she I think that given that it was like its guests improviser sit in with me the show called Mike birbiglia's dream in any given week.

It'll be like Backwoods from the Silicon Valley and she said she said It's amazing watching this art form with these people because it's all about the group and how everyone equal but in real life that person's of TV star that person's a movie star in that person shares a one-bedroom in Bushwick with five dudes who live on air mattresses and I thought that's not just a great movie.

I mean dancehall movie to me and I could just see the movie and I started just writing out just this really kind of throw up what I caught what I call throw up past of the of the movie script.

I would go to coffee shops in the morning for 3 my minimums 3 hours.

I stick myself in a coffee shop with no internet and no email know anything and then if it's going well I go up to five hours and if it's not going well, I just ended 3 hours but and then I would have started hurting.

What do you have a time that you generally used for that a 7 a.

m.

I try to do I try to right before my inhibition take hold of me right by almost to write in a trance and act in a trance-like.

It's almost like you don't even want to think consciously about what you're putting on the page for fear of you wrote this down in your book you eat you ripen is emails to people right in and I think that's such a brilliant you did is it that's in your book yet know it is and just for people who don't have that context I or what about an interview perhaps R.

I said that I miss Casey threw out the first few drafts of for five chapters of the 4-Hour Work week because it was either too pompous or to slap stick and then I decided to literally go into an email compose window and write the first chapter as if it were just a letter to a close friend after me having had two drinks.

That was basically That's so brilliant and Latins.

What I do is I'll write in my journal as though it'll never be seen by anyone ever and then more often than not the things I put in my secret journal are the things that that I iPod and when you sit down at the coffee shop 7 a.

m.

Or just beforehand couple things.

Do you have a particular type of coffee or beverage? And then do you use words you use I do and I do magic movie Magic screenwriter is the program I use or I write in a notebook by hand.

I try I try to write as much as I hand in an in a big and nice notebook that also has some meaning to make the movie Trainwreck and with Dave Attell and Amy Schumer Nessa bear and it was my birthday and Dave Attell got me a a journal like it was really sweet.

You know, you didn't you just like gave me a little My birthday in Seattle and that's just in the back somewhere.

And so he I have a good day, but tell notebook.

And so it's kind of fuel asked me to sign their notebook and I'll write like I bless these jokes and then I'll write in the band Fun.

He came to see my Off Broadway show.

Thank God for jokes, and he actually brought me a journal like as a gift and I asked him if he would sign it and so he wrote The Elements in the personal relationship with notebooks that I think can be helpful to the right are a couple loose really curious unless movie Magic screenwriter.

Why do you Set instead of save Final Cut or something like that.

It's so stupid and listen to the script notes podcast with those guys just despise final cut on your formation star final draft cork that I rarely admit to anyone nevermind in Publix to get to finish the script.

I found that I kept putting it off and putting it off and putting it off and I was analyzing my habits and I was like, I'm putting that I'm putting off writing a script but I'm not putting off, you know having lunch with Brian koppelman or you don't have enough if it's my brother or whatever and so I thought well, I'm always on time.

And I will show up to things so why don't I do that for myself? And so what I did was I put a note at a handwritten note next to my bed that said Mike and has three exclamation points.

You have a meeting at Cafe pedlar.

That's where I was at 7 a.

m.

With your mind which is so stupid.

It's so embarrassing to admit but it work but if it works, it works just like I was like, well, it doesn't matter that.

It's with myself, but it's a meeting and I have to be on time.

I love that.

I love it that the human mind is such an odd amount of nation of sensical and nonsensical behaviors.

I just love it when you bring vomit script out in a few weeks is it seems you start with just stream of Consciousness lines.

You want to include and Jeff? Like to see a thing of this, I'd like to see see in this I'd like to hear this piece of dialogue.

I wrote down like a record my walls.

I can see it's silly when you see my office.

It's just like a wall of court and one of the three by fives I put up I put up all of these mind writing slogans would you can look up, you know things like quotes from you know, there's a Ezra pound quotes that I have on my wall that literally three words and he's one of the best quotes for her writing only emotion indoors and I always try to keep that in mind when I'm writing because I think that that's it's just a really crucial idea that what you said mind writing quotes or just these kind of Like, you know, you can do Googles for like mind writing quotes and it's like quotes from writers collected over time by famous writers in and you can you know, they're written up and you know, there's like he's like you look around there's like lines from Hemingway lines from George Orwell and Jack Kerouac and it was funny cuz it was something that Elna Baker.

Who's who's the producer in This American Life actually gave me a tip when I was writing my book Sleepwalk with Me and other painfully true stories.

She said she said I had when I wrote my book, she said I had all these mind writing slogans in the wall and I and I used it and it it it's real.

I ain't trying to be really really helpful only emotions and doors was at the quote.

What does that mean to you? What it means alot times writer as a writer you get hung up on you get hung up on cultural references, you know lifetimes like video on how to do the way that I lose interest in comedians for example or sitcoms or movies or whatever is that it gets hung up on the cultural reference joke about cultural reference that literally will be gone in in 4 years or 5 years like what you know, there's a reference to Twitter in my movie and and don't think twice and I was very cautious to Think Through the implications of in 10 years when Twitter Twitter no longer exist or becomes the Myspace in the future will that reference make sense to the viewer and Advance the story and then cuz you know that I owe you always have to think in those terms like there's a part of Sleepwalk with Me the movie where my character is figuring out how to drive to one of his gigs and and he uses Google Maps and it's like a Freaky Visual and I had to think like okay what's going to be the mapping system of the future and then like will people be able to grasp what this mapping system is in relation to the story.

And in other words, if you get too hung up on sort of making jokes are in your serve cultural jokes about you know.

Is things that might go away then that whole five minutes of the movie is sort of dead in a way but sits I mean it's at risk ephemera when you have that topical hook.

Yeah.

Yeah, and so and so much with this movie and I was really about like, what is this about it's about friends.

And so when it's and it's about a group of friends coping with what it's like to be in their 30s and confront the idea that they might not be successful the way they thought they were going to be successful in life.

And what does that mean? What does that means little eyes? What does it mean for their friendships? And so it was it was about like whenever it would Veer into something that was like a cultural reference.

I would be like mineral with pull it back to its about friends.

And so that's what I mean by all like things that felt like principles for the movie like I would tie road like when my wife in the observation about how everyone is equal on face, but offstage, they're completely unequal.

I wrote In Wall this thing I made up which is Art is socialism but life is capitalism.

And that was it between his friends.

You should do should add your own quote to the the mind-reading quit squashing.

I get there today at what point then do you invite your friends over in ply them with pizza? What what form how rough is it when you give it to them about 2 months and it was two years ago in end of April and then like June the June tell if I had people over and so was a two months and draft and I have people over and I said you are practicing be good and thanks for coming and it was the end up being some of the most fun part of the process entirely because it's because there's really no steaks to your friends your work.

I mean, it feels like their steaks.

I was very nervous and invite, you know, but but Then it's just there's something communal about that.

There's something fun about it.

And you do a table read you have people take rolls, or do they just all react silence and then give you feedback at his work and like I would have my assistant of the time Greg would read the script to screen directions and an abundant.

I would assign parts and I would highlight the scripts for people and it would read it aloud and then we'd eat pizza when just kind of talk about what what it made us feel like, you know, my the director of my one person shows has this kind of stuff there.

She's really brilliant theater director, and he he always does this thing dramaturgically, which is good word.

He will listen to I will pitch him what I'm working on what my idea is or a piece of writing I even did it this week cuz I was asked to write a piece for storytelling about Nantucket Film Festival end.

I read it to him over the phone and so he can and he said Back to me will would I get from that is this and it's like this nuts a non-judgmental way of interfacing with a collaborator.

So so in other words, you know, I I I give him he reads this script and then he says, you know, what would I get from it is it's a group of friends and you know, one of them ends up being more successful than the other and then they're all trying to figure out what they're doing with your life and so is that If he said that back to me and I think to myself will know it's it's more than that.

It's actually about this business in this and he says well, that's not what I got from.

It is actually helpful to the process because it's I think one of most important thing about writing is that that you that people are getting what you're intending like I listen to an interview with Ron Howard where he's talking about how he he shows his Movie 2 tons of test audiences and it's not so that they can tell him what the vision for the movie should be in the rough cut form, but it's to find out whether his vision is landing with people and if it's not landing and if they're not he's not then he's not convey correctly.

He goes back and we works a lot.

So that's the screenplay process.

I like to work out in my living room, you know in my The shabby apartment in Brooklyn is basically what they're doing unlike the hundred-million-dollar level in Hollywood with more money in France your offices and development in Hollywood.

They developing screenplays for years and years and years and it's all these Executives giving notes, but I don't want Executives to give notes to me.

I want writers to give notes him and I want actors to give knows I want collaborators who actually do do the things that I like and end in y aspire to be like I bring I like invite people over who are way better writers at me.

Like I I have no business like getting notes from Phil Lord, you know, who's the director of 21 Jump Street and Lego Movie like he's just who cares.

I'm just going to ask him to come if he doesn't want to come that's fine, too.

I go through a 5-minute seen in its entirety and then people do post-mortem and give their their thoughts are with will will they reline and then say it like that by character wouldn't say that? That's weird.

It sounds like how do you how do you actually facilitate so we read it as though it's a table.

We just kind of adjourn and you know, some fiery discussion start, you know, a lot of people give their thoughts and and they really conflict with other people's thoughts and those people fight with each other and I listen to that and it's really helpful so you don't swear on stage generally as I understand it.

Although soccer said one or two funny exceptions, perhaps in a recent.

She'll think up a joke.

I actually dissect why I don't curse gratuitously on stage and and why in some ways in the thank God for jokes show I departed from that up.

Call a little bit.

Please explain because I've been I am an avid consumer of stand-up love it and have I've heard from since dirty Jim Gaffigan, but he is he's largely sanitized but he can often pull it off.

Right? And so what is your logic behind your approach it started off in in kind of an embarrassing way which is to say that my parents were very upset that I was going to pursue comedy.

My mom.

My dad's a doctor.

My mom's a nurse knows our professions are people help other people and are shamed of their artistic children and end but my mom is so sad when I was moving to New York and and she said just don't become one of those dirty Comedians and I said Okay, and she said you don't have to use those words to funny for example Oprah's very funny, and I'm not sure you understand my Google, you know, we stick is stuck with me because you know, you want to make your parents happy you do, you know, you were going to pursue your goals, but you're also you know these people gave you everything so you have to heed you should heed that to some extent and so I try not to curse for a lot of years, but I do I do feel conflicted about that sometimes cuz a lot of comedians I admire most did curse on stage Lenny Bruce Richard Pryor and then some of them who famously don't curse are secretly criminals and I'm somewhere in between gratuitously more often as as as as word choice than it is to sanitize it for people who object for you know, Christian reasons about words, like like I said, I have no problem.

I curse a lot quite a bit in my life.

But I but when you're a writer, I think that word choice is important.

I think word variety is important.

So if you say I don't know if you're cursing a podcast, but I do occasionally but I try not to be a guy in an hour that's poor word choice, like you're nice being created lazy tell him that calls out that point at the festival called Captain Fantastic and it's coming out.

I think I've heard so a friend of mine saw screener and said it was fantastic.

I haven't And he he won't let the kids say the word interesting because it doesn't mean anything right? It's actually called and made me reconsider that as a word and try to banish it from my vocabulary.

But but anyway, the point is at the f word is not I don't think the f word is is effective as a model August unless you're using it to shoot to the right effect to the effect for those are interested in delving into the entomology and various uses of the word fuck which is in fact, very flexible.

There is a book called English as a second fucking language.

Fantastic.

Who do you run jokes by I run them by primarily audiences is I go out and I bomb with yolks and I see what lives And then also my brother Joe my brother Joe took me to introduce me to Comedy when I was a kid.

He was he was a senior in high school.

I was in the eighth and Ninth Grade.

I was helping him write the satyr issues of the newspaper.

And then so that was for my introduction the comedy in the he took me to see Steven Wright live and that changed my life was when I was in high school and it just changed the way I thought everything was like an epiphany moment.

I was like, that's what I can do and I started writing in my notebook and even write rip off jokes and then really a movie cost me $95 You're just straight.

I mean, they're just the endlessly great if people are interested in that type of joke another great joke writer.

That vein is Mitch Hedberg.

Who am I leaving right away all this is over I'm doing this and then when I was in college, I entered a contest and and I want until it got me a chance to perform at the DC Improv and I got a job sort of working the door at the DC Improv and an end to the point isn't my brother Joe and I always would kick around jokes like ever since I was like 19 years old and now he he's worked for me or he's with his work with me.

We run our production company for the last 10 years together.

I I like poached him from being an ad copywriting is he had gone sort of the route and my parents had wanted me to go and I veered into comedy and then I should have brought him along when I was able to financially do that pulled into the dark side.

I pulled them.

Darkseid and he's he's an extraordinary writer and until I run everything by him.

But the big thing is also like I run I run stuff I said bearish and we're working on something for one of my one person shows and then my wife quite a bit and then audiences I mean audiences are the determiner of what is worth saying a lot depends if you're in front of audiences, I don't mean it doesn't have to be two thousand people.

I mean in 10 people at the Comedy Cellar on 2 in the morning, I I can understand whether a bit is going to work, you know for 5 years.

I love watching comedians work of material and I've seen a number of them with no pads who are friends of mine working on that.

You're only apologize after the fact you kidding me like this is what I want to see I can always see the finished product on HBO or whatever it ends up coming out.

This is the in process stuff that I want to see me, too.

I love it and Some of the details and see if there's anything to discuss so the process of eliciting feedback when you pass something by someone, let's just say it's it's comedy in your talking to our glass or someone like that.

Are there any particular questions that you asked in? The reason I bring that up is that when I have my friends who are writers proof read my writing.

Let's say for a book.

I asked him first highlight anything that is confusing like weather that we are unclear like whether they love or hate something is secondary to Clarity right as long as it's clear.

They can hate it.

But I want them to understand what I'm saying.

And then it kind of goes on from there is what I'm creating being conveyed the way that I meant for it to be conveyed.

Right and in your case is a brilliant man, but not a comedian as far as I can tell although he has his moments.

With someone like Ira or anyone else.

How do you is there pic of the way that you elicit feedback to make it as helpful as possible.

and usually I usually do it.

I I'll tell people bits and jokes over the phone partly because they can sort of peacefully peacefully gives feedback in a way that doesn't feel so judgmental where you when you're face-to-face with somebody it can be hard to say a joke to them and have them feel the pressure of all I should laugh or I should politely respond on the phone.

It's pretty easy to just kind of like skim through stuff and I can hear I can hear when people are interested by what will call people endlessly and pitched some movies that he's working on and he says he doesn't even have to hear the laughter he can he can hear in their silence what their interest level Like the silent whisper get the sense of like are they hooked or are they not if they're not hook your you should consider another Direction? Yeah.

Yeah, definitely in case I'm hoping to have him on the podcast sometime in the next six to twelve months, which I think could happen.

Why do you think this is a very broad question? Why did you make it so to speak in business were very few people.

Do you've you've reached a level of success across several different art forms, but let's just look at comedy in the various iterations of that.

What were the decisions you made or chance encounters or mentors or whatever it might be that contributed to you making Italy stepping the perception certainly.

When I was 19, I had a bladder tumor and I was I had ended up being they caught it early was a malignant tumor and so for the next every 3 months for the next like 5 years.

I would have to go for a cystoscopy where they would look inside my bladder and see if the cancer had returned.

They didn't I was very very lucky.

You know, it's like almost 20 years later and I go for cystoscopy like every now every like 2 years or so, but at this exact same time that I had this kind of life threatening ailment happen I've started to do comedy and I and I entered a contest and I want it.

I got the job of the DC Improv and I would watch every comedian who would come through the DC Improv and I would watch you know, the variety actually was really helpful thing.

I saw on Larry the Cable Guy before he was a stadium.

I saw no Dave Chappelle before he was the Chappelle show end.

George Lopez and Margaret show in Kathleen Madigan, Brian Regan, Victor Hanson MD asking all these people and I watch all of them and I'll try them with questions.

And so I was I had this kind of education in watching a ton of comedy and going to open mics and try and comedy at the exact same time.

We're ahead this realization from cancer that that life is short like in it in in 10 and you know, any can end any time and it's like in some ways the best thing that ever happened to me was was that perspective because I became an absolute workaholic trying to get good fast.

Like I want to become a really great stand-up comedian really fast and in so I feel like that that's the thing that There's this comedian Tommy johnagin who who starred in the Midwest and I remember he open for me one time when when he was in college and now he's always been a lot of times and he's he's got a great career when he was open for me.

Like when he was in college.

He like I had done stand-up like once or twice and he quoted this back to me years later and he said he goes you gave me this piece of advice but I like the moment I started and it's with what made me sort of help me create.

What I create is a career, which is if you want to perform 5 minutes of good comedy, right what you think is 3 hours of great, date and because that's the ratio that it is going to be you're going to write you're going to write about 3 hours of what you think is great and that about 5 minutes if that's worth worth showing on it.

That's a that's a good quote.

And I remember reading at some point.

I don't recall who it was.

I want to say Neil Gaiman, but that's just because I have a secret infatuation not so this is something helpful that I want her tribute to him somehow which was a writer talking about process and discussing the frustration of essay writing 9 or 10 pages and only having one or two paragraphs at the end be worthwhile and feeling and feeling like the first nine pages were a waste of time but then emphasizing no, in fact, you needed those first nine pages so that you could produce the two paragraphs that are abused.

Not only not only that I mean that's a brilliant way of looking at it.

Not only that everything that you do in your life.

I realize everything he's leading to where you are.

So it's so another words like the fact that when I was in college, I worked at the door of these en Provence.

Food to people tables and know that I was a waiter at the tombs when I was in college, and then I was you know, I was camped in New York City at a pharmaceutical company all of that actually led to the life experience that would be able to put something on the page that feels real.

There's a I went to a a little talk at the Nantucket Film Fest this morning with Oliver Stone and the thing that I wrote down in my notebook from that I take away was he when he was like 20 years old he wrote a novel and it got rejected like all over New York City like every publisher for like two years.

They try to get out of Charlotte 2 years and then he joined the army and when you got out of the army, he died because their GI bill was able to go to film School many made films and what he talks about is that it was the army that taught him to become self-reliant in a way that allowed him to under How to make films which is a completely the Army is what took me out of my head and made me understand that it's not about being just syrebral.

It's about being a combination of syrebral and self-reliant and being able to survive in the forest or whatever it is.

And in that sort of what went into this, you know Epic film career that Oliver Stone is had and and I think that that's that's worth considering in this discussion.

So given that which I agree with and how old are you now Mike, me asking I just turned 38 this week birthday.

And if you were going to give advice could give advice to You're 20 year olds off 25 or 30 so you can pick if you could just let us know what you were doing where you were.

What advice would you give to yourself if any I would say? Write everything down because it's all very fleeting Keith.

I was I keep a journal which I have but I would be I would have been more meticulous and then I would say don't don't bow to The Gatekeepers at at the head of my case show business, but at the Gate of of of of any of any business or any Endeavor don't bow to The Gatekeepers because I thinking that since there are no Gatekeepers.

I think that that you are the GateKeeper.

I like that has a vaguely.

Ghostbusters ring to it also Zaarly true now in history when you look at Twitter.

We are in in film and television and the internet mean there's a there's is amazing quote.

I think it's at the end of Hearts of darkness, which is the documentary about the making of Apocalypse Now where I think it's in the end credits with one final thing Francis Ford Coppola, please share in the seventies said that the the best movies in the future because of the way that technology is moving the best movies or can be made by like a kid remember it just from memory but like roughly like a kid in Ohio who picks up a camera and and start shooting something like that.

That's where technology technology is going to be democratized and it is and has been now it in a way that's Resident for film certainly across-the-board you have kids were programming in piecing together autonomous cars in their garages minutes.

It's really unbelievable.

Although as the technology or despite the technological changes much like the quote on your wall and motions and doers the core components of good storytelling.

I don't think are going to change all that much.

No, no and sort of twenty-year-old self is like is like don't don't don't waste your time on marketing.

Just try to get better.

Yes great advice.

I remember they do bloggers very early on it goes Roberts like she said to me good content is the best SEO so kind of the equivalent of writing online, which is everybody trying to optimize for search engine results.

He's like just put out good content people willing to it.

And that is how you get found to be it's it's not a betting also, it's not about being good.

It's about being great because what I find the Builder I get is like a lot of people are good.

Definitely.

Like a lot of people are smart.

A lot of people are clever, but not a lot of people give you their soul when they perform.

Yes, very very true.

So when you when you think of the word successful who's the first person who comes to mind and why in ear out the other Barack Obama? Rack of oven to me is is very inspiring he came from nothing he came and he didn't he became president.

He Doesn't have to feel like lost on cultural at time.

He doesn't have to be like he he doesn't have to be the president.

He could be like an extremely wealthy anything like he could be on Wall Street.

He can be a corporate lawyer.

He can be anything that he could be in Silicon Valley he could do anything that would make one a person billions of dollars and hit shows to the insert work in service as a country that being said and I've met him and I know him at the 75th Anniversary USL last month, which is really cool.

But then I met him two years ago when my wife is pregnant and And we asked him we are hoping with whatever we meet someone who we know doesn't care about meeting us.

We always try my wife and I always try and come up with like a trick question that throws them off in like the kind of have to answer or active.

Think about it.

If you ever see Jimmy Fallon on the street, don't be like, oh, I love The Tonight Show just be like, what do you think of kiwi you don't even like and it won't be able to not be like, I love kiwi, you know, like just talk to people about us pink gay didn't think they were going to talk about and then next thing, you know, you're talkin by Jimmy Fallon.

Kiwi and then you'll have that for your life.

But with Obama was let's tell him because my wife is pregnant 4 months pregnant, but we haven't told anybody yet.

And why don't we tell him that you're pregnant and don't get it when I go.

Mr.

President is my wife.

And she's newly pregnant, but don't tell anyone.

And any and he couldn't help the president of United States couldn't help you be like the first to know of any parenting advice and they will get some sleep and your boss times a million and then he goes but he got better because he goes no actual.

I got something when you bring them home presents at poo in the moment.

He said who I saw it.

This is the greatest day of my life right now, and I'd be fine.

It doesn't smell like a don't poop adult poop.

Smells bad and then he looked at me for affirmation.

I would absolutely mr.

President adult who doesn't need smell terrible.

Thank you for inviting me to the Pooh summer 2015 of any goes in and when you bring them home because babies crave structure eating and sleeping and and and it goes and if it doesn't, you know, if it doesn't always work out right away in billable wonky.

Don't freak out and if this doesn't work out the sleeping right away, don't freak out and any pause any thought about it because those are some pretty good advice questions.

They don't what you're doing and then end in my mine on play plants are people hate Obama.

I get it.

Whatever you're Republican.

I don't care.

You know, like if that's your issue, but would be Bob Dylan would be Bob Dylan is the great artists of our time because unlike the Rolling Stones or you know, the Beatles obviously broke up with someone who died but he he continues to grow and learn and produce and to change until I think that for that the time out of mind is a top 5 album Bob Dylan album of all time and he made it.

You know what my name is 63 women Bob Dylan when he was 21 years old when you've been doing it for three or four decades that you're do you definitely passed the once you're lucky twice your good stage.

The next question.

I feel like has to be out of left field for this to function after that incredible Obama story.

So let me try a question that I've been dying to ask someone but I I feel like you might be gay.

For this what are your rules for? Good sex Oh, wow, that is fascinating this standard thing that father says silly son when you make love to a woman be gentle and I think you should be gentle and listen and I think that's wise and that's good advice.

I think I think you should have sex assuming you're with your wife or girlfriend wants this more than you think you should.

It's kind of like pizza at like it's never a bad idea.

Said maybe I meant I mean you could even even add that to the list of incentives for your friends when they're proofreading I guess women and the script might not be good.

But I'm going to have sex if that if that's the qualification for the next reading series that just gets so many people in the door Yoakam Ivar's album with his pizza is like sex when it's good.

It's good when it's bad it gets on your shirt.

Is there a book that you've given her books as frequently as gifts.

I give people the DVD.

I give a book sometimes but more often I give a DVD of stop making sense.

Laugh out of here with that.

It is the David Byrne concert with the Talking Heads of Johnson Demi directed I think in the early 80s.

And it's just a really Innovative strange concert film that's very much worth watching and and taking in a creative sense because it's so unorthodox means called stop making sense in it and musically it pays off I think and I think visually it pays off cuz it's very abstract.

So that's the one thing I give the other thing is just I give this book called the people ask me about my sleepwalking all the time because I have obviously very seriously just order it almost killed me.

So I give this book called the promise of sleep and is written by dr.

William seed the man who is the father of sleep medicine in in this is it that you know jacket or even century and it makes a cameo in my book and often say to me because of my sleep disorder.

What should I do? I have insomnia by the Baha'i we say we'll get first will get this book and second of all the basic take away four starters is You know an hour or two before bed turn off your phone turn off your computer and in the end and forget with the third one in the stink of into but that you ease into like that your parking the car as opposed to crash in the car movies or documentaries love.

Terms of Endearment in Broadcast News are 2 Chainz on Brookstone stat.

I can just watch over and over and over again and that those are really that they make movies like those where you're laughing and in your crying, it's me.

That's what that's what all of it is for its to experience the range of emotions within an hour and a half or two hours.

If you is if you could combine three comedians alive or dead who won Super comedian.

Okay, so it would go something like this.

It would go Mitch Hedberg.

I'm writing this down in the pad Mitch Hedberg Doug Stanhope Maria Bamford.

So Mitch Hedberg, I think is the greatest joke writer of our time.

I think Doug Stanhope is the most honest comedian of our time and I think Maria Bamford is the most vocally and physically versatile unbelievable this completely Vivid Pitch Perfect impressions of people in her life.

And it's it's it's uncanny and Maria banford.

I haven't explored Doug Stanhope.

Is there any particular know there's no refund and it is Names of his albums are things that imply that you can't get your money back.

Does that mean that he does? What is I understand it? I mean listen to in watch the fair amount of stuff with Bill Burr.

So it seems that Bill Burr will deliberately lose the audience's because it's no longer a challenge to Simply make them laugh.

He wants to be able to reel them back in.

Is that effectively with Doug does it say? Yeah, I think it's precisely that I mean seeing Doug Stanhope live.

Is it sits Bill Burr actually to to the extreme.

I mean to the point where I I can't it's like watching it's like magic trick.

I mean, it's like watching Andy Kaufman doing his bit where he he does like his like Latka character speaking the gibberish to the audience in like vomiting and people not realizing it the character and then going into you know, a perfect Pitch Perfect Elvis impersonation.

And people go crazy and it's this thing where you can't believe that he lands the show after how terrible she made a fascinating and Bill Burr's Isaiah Bill Burr's Incredible 2.

I mean maybe you very close to that list as well.

Maria is I-5 listen to a lot of her comedy and being I suppose although I buy alternatively love and hate this description in the self-help business the I get asked about the secret a lot and manifesting things which is not really a focus of mind at all.

But Maria has this hilarious bit that I always mention I'm like, you should listen to Maria Bamford like she talks about the secret.

She's talking about being down-and-out and her sister is very successful corporate super-efficient.

And Maria has a rubber one.

Andre has put together a vision board and there's a microwave on the board and her sister goes I microwave really you want to fucking microwave that's depressing.

I'll buy you a microwave in the Maria's like manifest comes to mind.

I could be recent but whatever that is positively impacted your life.

Ideally not like a Maserati but something that's on the expensive side.

What's this is so in the Sun so stupid in like current and speaking of things not enduring who knows with a track my sleep and so a key tells me this thing about my sleep, which I see how much you were watching the night before in Elite.

I don't know if you know what they say.

Only tells you, you know, how you you know, what how long you slept but it tells you the quality of sleep during another word like it tells you, you know, you slept technically for 8 hours, but you you know, you were awake for an hour of that.

So it is actually quite helpful.

I like it.

So you use it primarily for your sleep in it for my sleep.

Yeah.

I mean the I like the steps that I like trying to get to 10,000 steps a day.

That's helpful.

But for the sleep, I mean you got to remember like I slept over at hospitals.

Countless times for sleep studies cuz I have REM behavior disorder and it's like $3,000 per visit to any auto insurance.

But some of it I have to pee and it is any of this thing basically does a sleep study and it costs a hundred bucks.

What's what's what type of nighttime rituals do you have when you mentioned easing in instead of crashing in the wall? Yeah.

Do you have any particular kind of wine down or evening rituals? I try to do their there's an actually a good podcast called not to be mistaken with Sleepwalk with me.

There's a good podcast called sleep with me.

He calls himself scooter and he don't stress really really uncanny skill of Talking in circles and slow and circling back to the first topic and then the next topic and then another thing and then it died crashing in the next thing, you know, you're asleep.

I mean, it's pretty fascinating what he does and then I try to write in my journal and then I honestly the biggest thing is is is is getting off of social media.

It's your getting getting off of Twitter and Facebook.

I think, you know in relationship to what we were talking about earlier.

Like I was saying nothing about Oliver Stone that he he joined the army and became that's how you became self-reliant and ultimately like everything in your life that you do lead to who you are and what you're able to accomplish.

I think that social media is weirdly the exception to that.

I think that social media is like this weird kind of look.

In the mirror all the time thing.

That is it's it's not helpful for for being productive or or or learn.

I don't I don't know if that's true.

But that that's been my feeling lately.

I think that the dose makes the poison certainly let me know if there's if there's a point where you're like all this Tylenol is helping my headache and then oh my stomach lining just fell out of my ass or actually literally happen to me, but that is definitely a point where it is things in excess become their opposite.

What is the on the flip side the first kind of 6220 minutes of your day look like I mean, are there any particular rituals that you have in the morning? Injecting your wife with insulin over and over again.

A lot of times if I'm not focused I will kind of wander in and you know, it's all until I have coffee forget about a heavy coffee drinker.

And and if I'm on a prop basically if I'm on a project if I'm shooting a movie I have complete an exact plan for the next day.

And if I'm writing a movie, like I said, that's my bed.

You're Mike wake up.

Go go to the coffee shop in right? I think that when I don't have a routine, I'm a mess and I'm not productive and it's not it's not helpful said that so that's what I say.

It's inconsistent.

The other thing is I travel I mean when it was thank God for jokes show eye toward a hundred cities in a year.

And so it's nice and very hard to have rituals when you're going to a hundred cities in a year.

Yeah, I wonder if it makes the value of the rituals even greater if you are able to maintain some semblance of routine when I don't know I've never done that do you have do you have a favorite venue in the entire United States? Do you had to pick one? Oh, gosh, there's so many I mean New York City New York feels similarly.

I think that in terms of like a pound for pound venue.

I think the Chicago theater is probably your best concert venue in America Chicago theater seats about 3,000 people and yet as a performer you feel like you're talking to people in your living room and as an audience member, it feels like you're just, you know, you're just you're just watching, you know, someone not in your living room, but sort of you know, and it feels intimate.

See you are at you're a collector of good advice.

What is the worst advice that you hear or see being given out often? And that could be in any domain could be, could be writing could be movies could be completely unrelated anyting it.

It's all about getting your dream pursuing your dream.

Like I feel like there's something I don't know what the exact advices that drives me crazy, but I think there's a cultural thing right now that It is kind of a jerk sandwiches that that people feel like they're like I read it recently in the New York Times or someone said we're getting her name who wrote this but she said if I had advice for college students, it would be don't ask.

What do I want to be when I grow up ask? How can I help or how can I change the world or how can I make be of service to other people and I think that the kind of like Just kind of be whatever you want to be is is perhaps to be reconsidered by how can I be of service when I'm on the earth for such a short amount because when you know what I do my shows like it's when when when I knew my one-man shows, for example, that's bearish and I we are always talking about what how is this? How is this story that I'm telling you know about that.

They Sleepwalk with me.

It's a story about it's a story about how I jumped out of second-story window while sleepwalking in nearly killed me.

I you know, I got cut up.

I ended up in the emergency room.

I was I jump through window in the glass missed my femoral artery buy it, you know it centimeter and and an ultimately we had to figure out not how is this show how is a story about me? But how is it about the audience and the way that it weegy? Discovered it was about the audience is that the you know that it's about it's about the catharsis.

You can experience by sharing something that you were very embarrassed about in my case having this life-threatening sleep disorder that I was embarrassed about.

I thought people would think I'm crazy.

It's about the catharsis of opening up and telling people that and how that can make us feel closer to one another and so in that sense is a roundabout way of saying, I'm always trying to think about how does how can my how can what I'm doing be helpful to the audience.

How can I go away feeling empowered in their life as opposed to go? That was funny, you know it cuz cuz walk away going.

Oh that was funny.

And if there's something about it that feels like it needs a missed opportunity.

I remember speaking to Jon Favreau on the podcast about writing in his writing in humor.

And he said I don't know paraphrasing here, but I don't aim for funny.

I am for truth and then off and comes along with it.

You say you on this points are what you can offer of service to Brian koppelman mentioned something in our text exchange, which was he missing you chooses to be kind.

It's a conscious part of who he is and I'm always interested in how he consistently thinks of other people in whatever engagement and how going through life.

That way makes him feel.

Can you confirm or deny or elaborate on that? Because it's it's mean it's an observation worth exploring mean is that if that is a decision you make is it Always been the case.

Is it something that you came to a particular way? I think I think that's from my mother.

My mother is a very generous person.

She's a 9 she's a nurse for whole career.

And then she was a school nurse for a while elementary school.

She's she's very Catholic which is not something that I've followed in the footsteps with but she's yes, she's just very sweet to everyone and I try to be a me.

I don't know if it's true.

It's nice to hear that.

Someone says that about me but I try I try to be nice to me to think it's it's writing to do I think that you know, I think that piece you know on Earth is achieved in a Micro Center.

I think it is peace is achieved through every person who you mean your day is is that not for two.

It's an opportunity to contribute to peace.

Everywhere, right? I mean, I mean, maybe that's why I don't think it's that have I remember this story.

I heard that leaves from a professor at Stanford and BJ Fogg who decided teach a class as professors at Stanford allowed to do that effectively made up out of thin air.

And I think it was creating world.

Peace or something like that had no idea what the syllabus of the curriculum would be whatsoever and then 30 students show up and he tries to figure out what the class is and what he realized very quickly is that your students from say israel-palestine all over the place.

No one could even agree on what world peace met.

Like what is world's look we agree on world peace.

Then this is the interesting part.

He said let us try to agree on what the antecedents 2 world 2B.

What are the constituent parts? That might make approaches.

Let's start to agree on some of the ingredients and then he had them work on projects focused on those common ingredients since I got that and I do feel like to take something like he's a naked actionable by necessity.

You're going to bring it down to the micro.

Otherwise, it's just not actionable.

It's too abstract.

By the way.

I am saying this like that someone is listening to this guy and he's an asshole porn with don't think twice and it will do to you in a while be like 20 minutes into it and it will hit me like a ton of bricks.

Like what is the people in the audience didn't like the movie now, they're listening to someone Babble on about how they made the thing that they don't even like you imagine a worse fate and listening to someone talk about a thing.

the date that you don't even like Well, are you like I have to say in this is not going to get a lot of sympathy from most people listening to this but I have a lot more empathy for people in the public light then I did say 10 years ago because you see like if you wonder why I wonder if that guy thinks I'm a total dick, but it just so happens like your cat got run over by a car in like your kid pissed on your trousers before he had to go to an important meeting and then your wife called was really upset and then some guy dropped your coffee on the floor and you're just in a shity mood in that happens to come up to you like as you're running to the gate to catch a flight that you're going to miss and I have a 30 second exposure to you in a really rare off moment.

They're like assholes and like literally just or you literally just rain your wrist like grabbing for a suitcase.

I had that happen on this last trip and it's just like This is a really strange thing to say.

I'm in a lot of pain right now.

I'm at that guy you made up the most ridiculous story leave it on his wrist.

And I mean it's it's I mean, I just experienced yesterday, which was hilarious and infuriating at the same time.

This is yet another reason to stay off of social media and I saw this guy who's supposed to be, journalist room as soon as a media producer whose could been painting me via text message for a while.

I've been traveling out of the country this and that's like get together have drinks like a buddy.

How's it going all this and I guess I didn't reply to them and so his tweet was in a Tim Ferriss is like an arrogant self-centered ass, but it doesn't mean you can't learn lessons from him and I was like, oh wow.

So this is what happens when I am out of the country for 2 months and Miss someone's texts.

Like they assume they assume malice.

Call or read it some point.

I mix us up was you never never attribute and I've modified it a bit like never attribute to malice what you can attribute to incompetence.

Now the way I've modified that is never attribute to malice what you can attribute to incompetence or busyness.

I'm not going to give way too much in the movie but it's like something catastrophic could have happened that they're not being open about because they don't want to be open about it.

And yeah that you're just assume that it's not a personal attack, but I'm getting up on a soapbox.

Let me kill myself out.

I think that's what that's good advice.

What is the best you've done? You said a hundred hundred cities right is their favorite meal that comes to mind and maybe it's Pizza could be but is there is their favorite meal or drink of yours that comes to mind? I think that some combination of like I love great macaroni and cheese like I like like like I love going to like the fanciest restaurant you can imagine and just ordering macaroni and cheese or like ordering the hamburger like 50 bucks a plate or something like that.

Like sure you can order the chicken or the steak or whatever.

But man.

Can they make a hamburger now are you deliberately? Is that for your joy or is it till I know I can remotely flog the kitchen.

Play the system.

I think so, you're not asking for like super well done.

Cuz I know that makes chefs completely insane great Secret in Cuisine, which is that you to order the kind of inexpensive pedestrian item on a really expensive fancy menu is more often than not amazing like to go to a town to go to a fancy restaurant.

If you are in a fancy restaurant in for whatever reason like there's peanut butter and jelly on the menu order the peanut butter and jelly because those people aren't fucking around.

I love it.

No, that's good advice.

I remember I had two different pieces of advice from two very good Chef.

Someone said if you got to restaurant never have the roast chicken because you can always make roast chicken at home.

Like you always make it home, but I had someone else say Roast chicken on the menu at a fancy restaurant get the roast chicken has everyone can make it at home.

You think you know roast chicken maybe along the lines of the PB&J if you order the PB&J if you could have one billboard anywhere with anything on it, what would it say? It would say I put it like in Times Square.

And it would say none of these companies care about you like it.

We've come to trust corporations in a certain sense.

And we forget the fact that they'd actually have no vested interest in US other than our money which is you know, any other than saying about Gatekeepers, which is like, you know, people always say to me like hey I have I have a very much of a niche career.

I have a career where the people know my work more often than not they're like, oh that's that's great.

I'm a huge friend has great what you do and but most people don't know who I am.

It's the definition of Niche, you know, I don't get stuck in the street almost ever which is great and so an into in relation that is I do things that are self-produced, you know, I'm a producer my movies and I'm pretty sure my one-man shows are produced my chores.

It's all in house and I try not to too kind of bow to The Gatekeepers of show business because I think they don't care about me.

I mean, they really don't like that.

Then that works in the Studio's.

All they care about is whether or not my movie theater my TV show or whatever it would be would make them money.

But but was so why would I try that? Why would I try to please those people by the people I'm trying to please is my audience.

They're the people who buy my albums are by you-know-who go by tick buy movie tickets as those are the people I care about those of you on making the movies for so I would say it to my billboard is these companies don't care about you.