Greg McKeown — How to Master Essentialism (#355)

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Hello boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show.

Am I guess today is Greg McEwen.

That is spelled McKeown Greg is the author of The New York Times bestseller essentialism subtitled, the disciplined pursuit of less and the founder of McEwen Inc.

A company with the mission at each essentialism to millions of people around the world their clients include Adobe Apple Airbnb Cisco Google Facebook.

You may have recognized who these pics are salesforce.

com Symantec Twitter VMware Yahoo, and many others McEwen is it accomplished public speaker and a spoke to do hundreds of audiences around the world and in 2012.

He was named a young Global Leader by the world economic Forum originally from London England McEwen now live in Silicon Valley with his wife and their four children.

He can be found at Gregory the Q Anon Twitter and at Greg McEwen.

Com, Greg welcome to the show.

And I'm looking here at a table in front of me with many many pieces of paper spread out and they consist of printed out highlights from your book.

Your book is one of the most highlighted books that I have on my Kindle and I wanted to first and foremost.

Thank you for writing it because I found it tremendously helpful personally and it has become one of the few books that I revisit on a regular basis.

So first off, I just want to Express gratitude for you haven't written the book awfully nice of you to do that.

This is the secret to happiness low expectations.

So it's nowhere to go but up from here and it's it's also A book I mentioned in that way because I don't want to create the illusion that I have some type of set it and forget it solution where the setting of priority our priorities is not an ongoing project at all times or at least very frequently something that needs to be Revisited.

So I'm looking forward to digging into a number of different topics and portions of the book and as well as many things that are not in the book but perhaps for those people who don't know could you just tell a little bit about the the Genesis of essentialism weather that is sort of the concept of the focus itself or or the book? What will I mean one of the initiating moments was when I received an email from my in a colleague of the time saying look Friday between 1 and 2 would be very bad time for your wife to have a baby cuz you know, I need you to be at this client meeting and somehow I was enough stressed in that moment or at that time between all the different competing expectations responsibilities that as we go into the hospital.

It's Thursday night.

We're in the middle of the night and I'm still feeling crappy.

How can I how can I do both and an insert went to the meeting? And being told the client will respect you for the choice.

You just made did feel that the look on my face is didn't even starts with the confidence to me.

But even if they had violated something more important more essential for something and someone else will and it gave me five for the two to really dig into the subject to try and understand that's why we make these kinds of prioritization decisions and what we can do to to be that special acid and to actually live our life according to the things that we've identified as mattress.

Text and at that time on that Friday when you took that beating what type of what type of work were you doing? What was your profession? I've spent 20 years in this field gen release of its leadership development companies at the time.

And so so there was a secondary pump to the story which is that I was already working with these companies and noticed a predictable at a professional level, which is that these companies in the early days would be very focused on this is what we're trying to do instead of a phase of pleurisy Lead to success that was real alignment between if you knew exactly what you were trying to do at the right time that you could generate success and then I noticed that success breeded options and opportunities for these companies, but it doesn't turn out to be a problem.

If it leads to what if these companies lie often would fall into the undisciplined pursuit of more it would lead them to make decisions in Scituate that they would plateau in that program or even start to fail altogether I name that does the success Paradox and so it was absolutely the combination of observing this phenomenon inside of these organizations in my own life that I realized all this isn't a business phenomenal.

Relevant for people who are otherwise successful people because the very nature of success is that you will have this basic problem.

You'll be stretched too thin at work at home both often busy, but not productive.

You will feel many different Pursuits hijacking your agenda reach day and any just have more that you want to do then you can do so that's in fact the normal scenario for successful people.

And so I felt like it was an underserved problem because most of the literature and successes how to become successful in the first place.

But for many many people does the real problem is what to do.

Once you are they even if you don't feel very successful as soon as you have more options and opportunity.

Do you need a new way of handling it then being a scenario where you have no options at all.

So so this is where I see the book came into its own is is it's really one of the few books connect to the subject of success.

That's about what to do.

Once you are successful at least my interpretation of that which is spicing successful.

You don't necessarily mean somebody is making a million dollars a year or company that's generating a billion dollars and turn over a year.

But in the simplest terms should someone who has more options than they can execute on in their totality write a day if we think about power on some level being having options.

Is the there comes a point when you have more options than you can possibly metabolize and and use across the board.

So then you start to have two window that down and in that case this is where principles of say essentialism are very helpful.

And I thought that we might explore a little bit one of the reframes that I think is very clever and very effective which relates to the endowment effect.

Could you talk and then I can certainly I have it right in front of me if you'd like me to to jump in as a as a reminder for a long-winded books and I've done them over pretty long.

Of time to every once in awhile I get quoted and I feel lost.

We don't have everything front of you.

But the could you talk about the endowment effect and how you turn around questions people might ask themselves about certain things whether that is something they own or an opportunity has presented to them sending.

This is really important for the problem and what to do about it.

So for loss of people listening even a successful and all the things in their life, they probably still have more things in their closet than than they actually can use usefully I talk to somebody So they may pay it organized using any of these things.

You just has them in the closet of Our Lives is equally true for a moment almost everybody in the process.

They take an item off the shelf off the floor and they say and reflecting on it's as if to give it away something mysterious almost magical seems to happen too many of us.

You know so I can in the something somehow in the act of getting it away.

It's harder to give it away than it was before we picked it up to give it away.

So what's going on and it sends eristic opportunities that we have been alive too in and it says this it's the week value things more because we have them.

And that means that's a good thing in certain situations phenomena.

Why nobody in the history of the whole world has washed their own rental car until we overvalue something that we really ought to have in the closet at all or to go.

It is actually not useful to as it's not valuable to us, but we are keeping it.

So it's overvaluing because we own it or its endowed to us.

So in our life that is an incredibly real problem.

We have something that happened to me that really hit a chord in it.

Dressed from head to toe in a Stormtrooper outfits.

Where all the good Epiphany start right and I look at myself that I have been thinking of this moment in some small degree for 30 years.

This is true.

I realize I'm in the Halloween story.

This is not a cheap suit that I'm trying on and I remember when I'm 10 years old, maybe return Jedi come out to one of the Star Wars movies in my older brother, you know a stormtrooper out just like from the movies like really got the real thing and somehow That would be so cool thinking about whether the blinds and in that moment.

I actually have a sort of did have it does not need this one.

Isn't this is for taking what I want you in this suit right now and I was able to separate myself from that storm Stormtrooper opportunity that you used to think.

This was the thing.

You're pursuing it cuz you just serve have it you caught on to it.

You you feel a sense of this endowment effect.

The sense of is my opportunities.

My thing is my goal and its anymore.

I think a lot of people have a lot of Stormtroopers in their life.

And so it's the really we need to get past and let go so that we can pursue the right things now not just the things that we proceed because at one time we wanted to pursue them a one time they came into my life and it seems like there are a number of ways to identify these weather there Stormtroopers or items opportunities that we are in Dowling with greater value because we have them because we're I'd we had their own them are being presented with them, right so you could take Let's just say that sweater from Aunt Mildred.

Whatever it is and rather than asking.

How much do I value this item? You turn it around and ask if I did not own this item.

How much would I pay to obtain it right in the turnaround seems really important to me or in the case of opportunities and I'm quoting here.

But you know, how will I feel if I miss out on this opportunity instead of that if I did not have this opportunity.

How much would I be willing to sacrifice in order to obtain a right? That strikes me as a very powerful reframe and I certainly also I think it was Andy Grove Intel who also use this week and there are many other business examples, but if we if we were not already in this line of business, how much would be pay to pursue it or would we pursue it in the first place right as a way of pruning? Activities and conserving resources and so they can be applied to the most important things when you don't have the option to tell you you have to reflect on it as fresh if it's okay starting now, I want this thing now do I how hard would I go after this now if I didn't own it if I didn't have it and it helps us to evaluate things more without inflation the fact that we own it.

You created as I understand it a class at Stanford GSB at the business school did that could you describe that class and the the Cricut when I know nothing about this? It was just mentioned very briefly and passing some of the reading that I was doing in preparation for this but could could you describe the class and the intent in the curriculum of that class and could you would people be interested in really coming together to design their life not just using design principles which design think he has enormous application value to to allies but potentially is design thinking with an essentialist lens.

So if you had to come together and you had to design your life, and we we did it in design pass or even a design threes where you would be designing for each other.

Life around the most important things the essential things and if we haven't made it clear as it stick it stick figure out what is essential it is to eliminate to Central and it is as effortless as possible to get to clarity about really magic versus what was just good in their life, you know, what was very few highest values on highest value project most important contributions and then to get to work out how can you stop trade off the things that you have least value of it still play a role in your life.

That is still do Stormtroopers still still taking up energy.

Resources attention that really the right things and so this is this is what we had a variety of Bacchus through any of those exercises are described them because at one of the one of the topics I was going to get to of course is how to answer the question, you know, am I investing in the right activities or how to determine that because there are cases let's just say in a sales organization where you have very clear measurables very clear deliverables.

And it's it's perhaps rather straightforward that you have just say solo printers or early-stage entrepreneurs where they're wearing 17 different hats at a given time and they they might actually have some trouble identifying the answer to this.

So could you walk us through any exercises that you use with the students? Yes, I would love to do that.

And I'd love to do it and it in a different way rather than to talk about it in the abstract or even just tell her to tell us a story about someone.

Let's do it.

Like if you'll came through an exercise that grew out of those experiences book with you right now.

Are you game let's do it and you don't have to choke a certain just in your life right now for real something think of something tell me something that is essential to you.

Very important to you that you feel your under investigation right now.

It is really massive.

But you know, you're not really pushing the resources you wished you were behind it.

K I would say I'm investing in a pretty well, but probably not as much as I should or feel that I that I should it would be experimenting with and researching different modalities for addressing.

Psycho emotional trauma things that I have not addressed to previous books so that the emotional component of life that subconsciously very often drives.

So many of our behaviors patterns, it would be doing personal experiments related to that and I've already done that over the last four or five years, but really investing in organizing all of that.

So just clarifying that sounded to me like there's a future book here a few decades, but if I put it on a closer burner it's not on the back burner is still on a burner, but if it's it's been pushed from the back burner to a front-burner, you can see that if you could identify the tools concrete ways of handling this kind of Chroma, yeah, I'm reading into this now, but that you've experienced that, you know other people of experience that that that could be incredibly valuable to people because because it's actually so much more Universal than is obvious Universal challenge that we've gone through trauma as we don't know.

We don't have the skills on the tools to know what to do with that.

That's right.

So it is written while I think very effective for helping people to build businesses focus on physical performance or improved physical performance and appearance and so on hendo's same objectives can be used as salves or numbing agents to avoid the roots.

Psychological or emotional traumas that are causing self-destructive behaviors if that makes any sense sense to me that even a deliberate intent pursuit of good objectives to be successful and they could be just a form of being stuck in a different more positive looking coping mechanism and I should say also I'll let you pick where we want to go.

That would be one.

That would be one area.

I'm not investing enough in potentially.

The other would be Rehabilitation of a A sacroiliac injury that I have in my hip so the options we can go whichever direction you want to you fruit.

Which which one's the most important but the first one is why does it matter so much to you, right you said it and and we ought to identify them in a why but I sense in you it it's it's a pretty deep why for you, you know, whether we have words for or not.

It's like know that you know, I maybe it's like this it's all of the books.

I've done before a really preparing for this for that those of all given a platform, you know, this is millions of people literally, right? You know that well done you be built built this extraordinary platform to be Out Of Reach people make a difference.

And and now what what what what is the what is the highest to deepest contribution that can be made and it is you're doing it.

I feel like there's a source of which is which is okay.

If we get really honest and raw we find that there's a lot of unresolved a lots of unresolved trauma little bit a baby on the process.

But but I mean, this is something that's very like this is important to me the subjective room to rent one of the things I've begun doing research about season is intergenerational trauma and how and how even if in our own lives we go high.

Go to life is what counts and so on what you find his that they can be that can be multiple generations of an unresolved issues that manifest wordless lie in our own lives because no one talked about them.

So but we don't have language.

That's the worst scenario to be in his to have is to have good the problem without any ability to to even talk about it to address it to even know that it's really bad until we have language or the ability to feel that something is off and an inability to identify what it is even so the city What I would put together would be a from my perspective or for my experience a comprehensive description of my personal Journey.

But also the tools that I've found to be most effective not only for myself but for other people that's very very important to me which is what would what is sesh for you and I don't mean success like the okay the book is there so that it's that you could go down the street and conclude.

Okay.

I know this isn't the right time for what is your daily amount of time that you would need to invest in best for you to say to me.

I now feel like I'm not under investigation more steel.

So what's the Delta between where you are right now in a daily amount? And why you say don't know perfect just not like actual amazing about how much I want to explain why I struggle perhaps a bit to answer it and I think this will also be a struggle that applies to other people this this is a this is a project where I don't yet feel I have gathered enough research to proceed to the writing and synthesis phase even though I've collected notes for almost 5 years.

And so there is the question of am I ready or am I not ready or am I simply putting off the next step? Because I am fearful of something.

I would say once I get into synthesis phase.

And I am doing a lot of experiments and have for the last four or five years.

I would be putting in 4 to 5 hours a day minimum on this to feel fully vested.

I can't I find it very difficult to put together Pros in any fashion or attempt to put it together for more than three or four hours a day.

So probably probably if you have three three to five hours per day, but I would be thinking about it.

All day everyday it will be running in the background right for Netflix how how long how many hours does it take from to do it? And he said he said that he said that's like asking God how long it takes for him to to to grow an oak tree.

He's like that's what he's doing all the time.

He's growing created the world and every is it you said that.

That's what I'm doing in my whole life.

That's what I'm doing.

Okay, so that that's interesting show of the two.

You just said two interesting things that you said, you said, I don't know what it is.

It's really keeping me back from doing it.

You don't visit does a? Here around do I spend time on more research? Per day or do I spend do I share? You know, you got a gathering of research pays and then I'm going to consciously be applying it and writing about my applications of a two-phase process that you're following and to answer my question about how much time you spend you have to know which phase you're in right to say if this is something that's useful fodder that that the fear may be as simple as fucking it up because I've built this book up in my mind for the last five years is almost certainly the most important book.

I will have written today and they ever right and there is a There's a there's a very clear fear of fumbling the ball when I've been given a fantastic opportunity to do some good.

So I think there's that as well as if you're fucking it.

Absolutely.

I am I completely relate to that.

I just barely begun in this is a very early on a book and and am I to myself for quite a while with this has been don't write the rubbish hook and just recently it's real fear and you don't eat you when you when something's important and went in NM Franklin from my point of view the easiest thing in the world.

I don't dance dance like that's what happens infected and in Austin often has been successful to to write so that alone is a fear but this double whammy fear because you're doing so much and I'm pretty much in your mouth, but I think you can sense that that maybe Just an obstacle.

That's that's that's keeping you back but it isn't really real like you're not going to ride to rubbish book, but you but you worried that you are not worthy to lead you back.

Does that sound right where you thought this is valuable for me and your your mention of the the Mantra replacement that your wife suggested made me think of something I was told and I can't recall the attributions to someone can find this certainly but that that's worrying is like praying for what you don't want the sense.

I have the wrong the antecedents.

Framing that I have right now is is preventing me from from taking that the most essential next actions.

I accept and I agree that it's that's probably a phantom worried.

Like I'm not eat if I wrote a book that I felt was rubbish.

I also wouldn't publish it.

It's so real what what what's the best amount for for you? Well at the first thing that came to mind was good Now is better than perfect later since there is a lot of suffering in the world and not that I'm playing savior or anything like that, but I've experienced a lot of pain myself and found things at work.

So there's an argument to be made that the size of compounding of suffering over time.

Would mean if I put out a book that is 80% of what it could be in 10 years.

It's still better that I put it on now.

That may not be the right Mantra, but just to say enabling beliefs that could be water assumption.

I'm curious about whether it's perfectionism.

That is the barrier.

Yes.

I think that's absolutely what is your multiple choice question.

Is it just the very subject itself? It's just like right what what if you don't get it right walked what happens then? What's the fear really? How did I let people down that I received wide-spread criticism because I didn't do enough due diligence to cover all the bases and to test the different modalities that I should I part part of the Big Challenge in this particular arena for me the subject matter, which is so broad.

Is that unlike physical performance where you have many measurables unlike? In the realm of startups where you have key metrics and so on which are measurables a lot of this emotional Terrain.

Is very squishy.

There's a lot of bulshit and a lot of charlatans and a lot of I would say imprecise thinking and faulty logic is that needs to be sifted through so it's it's it's been a very challenging realm in which to do testing and research if that makes sense since we we we we we we like in The Germ Theory era that y'all exact emotional traumas, you know, it's a wild wild west in comparison to what he will know and we'll learn about the subject.

Okay.

So let's say let's say you that you are hiding behind this concern and now shifted towards phase two of the project right where it's okay.

I don't have it all.

All there is no such thing is that 80% is going to be good enough at 80% So let's say you do move to the second thing.

You said you identify tree to 5 hours is that an additional three to five hours of from where you've been before is that you spending some time alone now, so now you have to add another 2 hours.

What's this? I'm spending the way I've been working on it and my apologies for folks at this is it this is not immediately seemingly apply to what you're doing.

But hopefully this is helpful just to hear people or to hear the two of us work through this process was the research phase for me is very chunky if that makes sense.

It's two weeks of 24/7 and then 4 weeks of trying to figure out what the fuk just happened and it's it's not a daily.

Slow and steady process.

Whereas the if I were to say enough is enough Tim.

You can always do more research.

This is a defense mechanism you're using to put up starting the composition of the book start the composition of the book.

This is then I would get it into a phase where I'm looking at three to five hours a day on a regular consistent basis.

So I would say I'm effectively starting at zero because I'm in phase one where for instance ending about a week ago.

I was two weeks off the grid doing your experimentation and research and Gathering notes.

So I have that but then for the last week, I have effectively spend zero time on it because I am In the down the downshifted phase without an active experiment covering the first phase but not equally did not equal phases for Phase 1 of applying essentialism is what is essential when you want to shift to and so on so it sits and I always want to emphasize this small side point which is that sometimes when people even when they read essentialism, I think I've written a book about should have saying no but that is positive but I didn't write a book called in a cold.

No ISM it it's about essentialism.

And so that's why the the trust of this conversation has to be there because we got to get clear what's essential.

What do we actually need to make the changes that is highly important to us and that's what gives drive to everything.

So just before moving on to the the trade of phase I think I can identify.

My my question before the multiple-choice its is the primary thing the the protectionism or the primary thing just a personal.

Pain not writing a book That's a Some Kind of Pain this particular subject.

The very nature of it is risky to put it out there a level riskier to be criticized when it's something that so personally so personable perfectionism.

I've spent the last handful of yours coming to terms with the risks inherent in writing a book like this and the inescapable barrage of criticism that I will get and so I'm really trying to Ingathering the notes focus on or have the base assumption that it's not how many people don't get at that matters.

It's how many people do get it and to focus there are in a herd recently in this actually a documentary, which is very entertaining called the price of everything by paraphrasing here.

But there's three categories of people those who see those who can see when shown and those who will never see and I'm really in the context of a book like this trying to focus on the first two categories.

So I've accepted the the risks I think come to terms with most of them.

It's it's perfectionism.

I think that is that is the Fertile or not clearing at the moment at least one.

Deer of a kind of tools the Titans but applied to this pain point just seems I just seen you know his anxieties become the number one is diagnosed condition reaching out depression.

Now rightly on this stuff going on.

This more trim is going on in a variety of ways.

I think it's fair to say but also there's more openness to talkin about things not discussed suddenly being a being able to be discussed and try to ways that I think people feel unsettled inside out there that could hurt.

Wrist in the world, but recently I feel like the risks of feel more within people that they used to and so I just think it's so relevant and I think the way that you would approach him and I desisted there are obviously people that will need it just the way you do it.

So are you okay, so that's it differently, which is what is something non-essential that you're over investing in currently.

Yeah.

That's a great question.

I've already categorically in the last 6 months cut out certain things say Certainly any type of book blurbs which necessitate reading books.

Those are all gone speaking engagements all gone with very rare exception unless they happen to be within a 15-minute walk of where I live which stuff doesn't happen very often and soul classic.

I never I never seen anybody that's done this ever read your email bounced back has it and would attachment to it and I'm making this up.

I think this is what is evolved over time.

But it's it's very it's very clear on the things that I do not do you like any of this stuff? There is no point and I do I do when possible try to point people to other helpful resources Which Wich for whatever for whatever reason people really don't want to read they want me to regurgitate it in a half-assed matter to them one-on-one rather than just pointing to them to things that have categorically decided to say no to because I do not do moderation well with those Right.

I don't do moderation.

Well, nobody does moderation.

Well year ago and almost 5% of sugar come out before I begin everything's an exception and I'm not going out to text my wife.

I got to 100% then it is to go 95% because what you're doing is you're taking out the decision process it's done.

Set the first I want to just mention that it one of the one of the concepts in Essentials and that I really appreciated is trying to find the one decision that removes a thousand decisions such as the root the elimination sugar that you mentioned as as just one example, I will tell you where I struggle and I think I'm better than maybe Average Joe or Jane at saying no to things.

I'm quite good but one of the great ironies of writing a book called say essentialism or the 4-Hour Work week is that if those Concepts hit in the books do well you suddenly have a flood a torrent of inbound requests and ulcerative new categories of things to contend with and I find myself struggling to say no to people who probably land on the spectrum of good acquaintance shoe reasonably good friend who ask for help with various things and there are certain things that I feel very comfortable saying no to like the book blurbs, but I have hundreds of requests.

Those are all from friends, but doesn't certainly for promotion of their books on social.

It's usually book-related cuz people want their books to sell being on the podcast you name it and I have I feel like friends who do not fully think of the ramifications of their request often times when it's last minute where they wouldn't ever go to the New York Times the day before they have something come out and ask for everything to be reshuffled for their benefit.

That is what Stop having to be on a fairly regular basis since I think I allocate too much time to trying to explain myself to those people or placate those people in some way and I would love to hear your thoughts on best practices or or service sticks related to that specifically because I don't see myself as a people pleaser, but none the less with this particular subset of people.

I'd I do find it really challenging and there are times when people I would like to maintain a good relationship with you coming to me last minute for help that I cannot deliver without massively inconveniencing my entire team and reshuffling get very pissed it away or they take it very personally and maybe that's okay.

I think I tend to think that it is and I'm I'm going a little long hair, but it's I think I a challenge that a lot of people face.

What are your thoughts let's let's just agree on the problem.

First of all because I see your friend of mine once told me he said he said I take every time and resource estimate is given to me now and I * pi So he's saying I thought he was exaggerating if he's saying it's called the planning fallacy fallacy is saying these things take underestimate almost all the time how long things will take and we do that even with things we have done ourselves before driving from point A to point B takes us 15 minutes.

But if we can email we will convince ourselves we can do it in five minutes this time.

We'll get the old green like everything's going to put her somehow it be done.

If I don't suppose we do it doesn't take that long takes 50, but it's a little late for the meeting two pieces to it.

The first is this piece and the second is the relationship impact of how to handle it.

But what you're describing is a problem with somebody is really underestimate.

What the request is? This and that I had that going this is a 2-minute favor Tim.

It's not hard.

All you have to do is put out a tweet how hard can it be? And so in that had the honesty is very small, but the reality is that they're on skis much bigger, right? They don't think they also don't think about the reputational risk or anything like that of a Dorsey something that I don't have time to read it.

For instance.

Maybe it's maybe you already did it but actually creating one page you got the email bounced back document having a page that says this is the real cost the total cost of ownership of me saying yes to this.

So that I may be proactive approach which is like look this is I'm just putting this out there.

This is what this actually cost because it's getting that thing of cheese and and so being able to try and calculate all of that the total cost of ownership what you have to do with the planning fallacy if you have to consider the total cost so that we don't stop projects.

We don't complete the project.

We don't finish.

This is just a version of that problem that that coming.

I feel for you and I don't understand the full range of impact.

So I'm writing this out.

Like it's a recipe in the future.

If you want to be considered.

This is the process you would need to go through other people's problems be that problem.

If I talk to Cloud, he's he's he's talking about meeting with a couple of their parents and they come to see him and they say your son with so many problems with our son and you know, Okay.

Well, I understand where he has a problem and an inductor passes will I think I think And they did what you mean that he's right in the morning and your sprinkler head when your lawn is faulty and it's spring on your neighbors.

Grass is green and your grass is dying who has the problem.

You've got the problem, right? Because your grass is dying doesn't have a problem doesn't have a problem cuz he's comfortable at home with you.

He has to do whatever he wants.

The life is fine.

He doesn't have a problem you have a problem now is to help your son.

I have a problem with your son have his problem intended intended to but you got it all wrong.

You got to let him on it.

If he doesn't have a problem if he if everything's taken care of for him.

He can move forward and get better.

And so now it's a bit strong to use that example examples that you have read this conversation with but but it is a symbol of principle is that there has to be a boundary and it has to be in education you made this from my phone right now.

Let me just say this out so that you can own the problem to the future we can do this at that.

I was told something not not too terribly long.

Every two years ago, which was along the lines of Align, you could use with such people are all they probably have to dress it up a little bit which is either your lack of planning does not constitute my emergency and is it just exposing Theory makes a lot of sense but it's sometimes Falls by the Wayside Inn practice due to fear of social repercussions, which we we can get to in a second man.

I've had some awful experiences and I want to turn this into a 100% Tim Ferriss therapy session, but just so people know those people out there who may be like, oh, yeah that's never agree to ex or whatever it is.

I've had instances where journalists from mainstream Publications have reached out for book blurbs or help with their own projects.

I've Paula very politely declined because I've been unable to help them in the past.

Do they required and they've gone on to write like hit pieces are Hatchet pieces or slam piece is about me out of spite and it's like that kind of shit happens.

So I think I'm a little once bitten twice shy from a lot of those experiences ultimately does any of that prevent me from doing the Essential project that we discussed not really.

So if one can say let's take the let's take the argument from you thinking about yourself too much and you every single request that someone from from from Media or any friend any acquaintance anything that they want from you you should be saying yes this what you know, you got lots of people to do it for everybody else is that argument right isn't really right.

It could be right is it right? It's it's I don't think it's right and even if it were right it's not sustainable.

What is something if something is not sustainable? That's like Copyright will not continue it cannot continue, but it's impossible mission Alero with non-essential isn't like the problem with non-essential ism is that it happens.

It happens to be a lie.

It's just inconvenience.

You can't actually do everything.

You can't actually get this next book that we just identified.

What is why it matters deeply Wyatt Manson's launch living and an announcement to the universe and also do everything that people think Is reasonable for you to do you cannot do both of those things solution.

I can have that actually isn't it's not that means it can't be done.

You can pretend you can be doing it for a little while and then the book doesn't get written all those people that said the ones that aren't probably asking anything from you but that still in pain and you could still do something to be useful to them provide them some helpful insights that you gain you can do that or you can you can keep helping the people that are asking for the four things that really disrupt that whole process so which do you want Which problem Tim do you want the former before right, they could be other misunderstandings.

And so what we do is separate the decision from the relationship.

You've got to think of the decisions in two separate buckets.

We just done that has made the decision you understand the relationship now in some airy-fairy essentialist Lando.

You can have a cold sore trade-offs.

Of course, there will be people that are first grade think about think about How many requests are going but she can't possibly ask how many people sent her books.

Can you imagine how many books will being sent over a bit at the height of his just insane Warehouse is full and she had to get some how to be to get to a level of peace with no way.

I can even touch any of that stuff.

I've got to find to be true it to this to this voice within me clarity about what my mission is my Essential Mission and not all of this other stuff.

It's not being unhelpful to the world.

For you to say no to something that's less important is not being unhelpful a selfish in the world that option is to this to the highest point of contribution you can make it but what I think happens a lot of people get caught up in the idea that they pretend nothing else going on in my life.

That's not a sensualist joint rubbished.

The question is if I do this and what doesn't get done what else gets pushed out now requesting piece that can be absolutely ways of helping people I want to help people.

But but if it's at the cost of something that's actually more important.

Location not to do it one more piece it which is important that you don't want to put these relationships and that's where is the damage to you through some media Outlet stuff doing some hit piece or help you understand that to yourself writing this all out.

You know, this is what I am trying to do and why it matters.

I'm in a way it's having the conversation.

We just had written.

So that it can be expressed again and again and again at the why behind this answer the why is the thing that we miss out on what is essential Step 2 is what is non-essential? When's that tree is how do you create a system that makes executing what's essential as effortless as possible? Because having this this written out documents how you use it is I'm not sure yet about that my own head.

But if this is the cost of disrupting that this is what it does.

This is who will lose out if I don't stay focused on this now all of that becomes like a Coke or communication call for yourself a pivot replace the pivot to when the request continues to the document assistant was was away from with while couple weeks and any amount damage I managed to do in those couple of weeks ridiculous.

Yeah, the number of things I meant to commit to pay attention to actually she's going from remembering now.

It's messed everything up.

I said I said, let me tell ya what what's wrong with you? How are you thinking that you can take on all of those projects and all of those ideas fully about the cost of doing all those things that you was dead.

Right? And what we came up with three rules of things that I would and wouldn't do and I'll give one of the rules was no personalization any personalization So what if I'm if I'm doing Keynotes workshops, whatever I listen, I don't understand what the butt but I'm not going to redo re re Che it's like you're rewriting the book every time that we have to rethink everything.

Which one rule and then we had two other rules.

Are you willing to share the other two girls and a guy should know what they are.

Right.

If I say this three rules never really useful to it.

If they come up they come up we can also wait wait for them to surface.

Yeah, so when so I should one was one was over over.

Over cracked based on based on a negative feedback of the people in the comments as X and I think she's absolutely right.

That is a strange it.

Let's redo how we doing this to address that concern the same sort of thing it switch over reacting to react to this kind of feedback.

You really cause a problem for other people giving feedback and I and II in hindsight can see how that's fit in my life.

Right? Somebody's trying to be helpful to trying to be on this they giving the feedback and I'm multiplying with the effect today.

And then it looks like he didn't know new projects like beyond what we've identified like very identified a couple of really big things.

I want to go off too and it's like no no no new projects outside of that which is the other one doesn't need to just Successful business in those things of keep calling me into it and and and I just might whenever ice not working on it.

I'm like, you know, you see those kids super Machi see a kid on the floor.

No throwing a tantrum.

They just lying on the floor by legs spread out.

I'm spread out.

I just like they have no energy to even get up off the floor.

This is this is how much passion they feel for being in the supermarket on this date wants to be getting up and doing this.

That's how I feel in that business.

It's just not worth near me.

Say that in one way or another so many times has no part of you that wants to do that's why you doing this is so amazed.

I think we got that instead of Stormtrooper.

You could use floor Angel as a shorthand for that one floor Angels exactly.

What it is a short Change is too much when you do a little more which is you could give up.

So there's a trade-off now, so we have an essential trade-off and but that's not enough.

For Steeler that there is a system in place that keeps you away from getting on with this Nextbook if it keeps you saying yes to to request it and pushing back one thing so far you can do to build a system which is writing this all out.

So you have it there so that you can eat a say in person or email or Express clearly the y n n m a y this cannot simply be an easy guess why this is a customer yesterday to every request whether the request comes from somebody else or from within ourselves, which is where a lot of the stuff comes from but you can negotiate and and I think what happened to the people default.

Yes because they're so fearful of the Rood know and its effects.

And so they forget that there is a negotiate part of this that is a educate part of this and that's what I think this is selfish, but there's got to be more we ought to do something else that will actually help you make the shift.

Let me just ask one more time.

Do you want to make the shift? Do you want to make this trade off just to do so, so what would help do whatever you ideas yourself already of hats and and and tools and tricks to be able to help you.

That's a cute but they otherwise wouldn't so you could definitely helped co-design this right? That's how we began at the design school at Stanford to help actually designed a system.

But waiting in your favor.

Let me know when we'll get there.

We'll know when we've achieved it because on a day, you don't want to make the trade-off.

You'll still make it, right? on a day that you don't want to make a trade if you're still make it that's when you got system working on your side, which is a she just also note for people listening applies to diet applies to exercise applies to just about anything where a system can be designed that is waited in your favor in such a way that it's it's unlikely to fail question / topic.

That would be very helpful.

Just to hear you talk about it.

I thought about it quite a lot, but I'd love to hear your thoughts and I'll give me also an excuse to read something from your book that I that I enjoy is.

Determining what a spare.

well-reasoned polite decline looks like and recognizing that I only have control over the delivery of that message not how people emotionally respond to it and really just leaving it at that.

Like I have delivered my message in a fair even-handed banner and it's up to the recipient as to how they want to respond.

If they if they over react in some negative way that that is their problem not my problem and I bring it up on a metal level.

I just want to mention one that I highlighted in your book Excel mention to the first is make your peace with the fact that saying no often requires training popularity for respect.

And solves read this part here.

Yes saying no respectfully reasonably gracefully can come in a short term social cost with part of living the way the essentialist is realizing respects far more valuable than popularity in the long run.

This gives me an excuse to just read.

I don't think I would use this exact text.

But Peter Drucker who is one of my favorite authors hit his extremely boring Lee titled book.

The effective executive is is remains one of my my my repeat reads but his response and you may have to help me with the last name here, but I think it's it's a check sent me is that the professor use replying to that keeps replying to a request and his polite decline goes as follows quote.

I am greatly honored and flattered by your kind letter of February 14th Sprite admired you and your work for many years, but I've learned much from it, but my dear Professor see I'll just abbreviate.

I'm afraid I have to disappoint you if I could not possibly answer your questions.

I've told I'm creative.

I don't know what that Just keep plodding.

I hope you will not think me presumptuous or rude.

If I say that one of the secrets of productivity whereas I do not believe in creativity is to have a very big all caps.

Big waste paper basket to take care of all all caps invitation such as yours productivity in my experience consist of not all caps doing anything that helps the work of other people but to spend all one's time on the work of the good Lord has fitted want to do and do it.

Well and quote that's that's very clear and very direct.

Do you have any suggestions for templates or favorite ways of saying no to requests from people, you know that you simply cannot or do not want to comply with that story.

How do we have the text? Why do we know that that's how we responded positively saying this is one of the keys to creativity is, you know, I reached out to him and he showed me this and I learn something in the process which is highly creative people are willing to block out space to do the work that they are built to do want to do and I'm just doing everything that everybody else is doing what everybody asks if them so it what it helps us to identify as it is such a situation as being able to push back say no and that's to be a positive result come from it or email it to me.

I learn things for myself as such a thing and often with such novices at no.

Learn how to do it and we don't do it.

So we just assumed that bad things are going to come sometimes they do but I think that we we we have to do like reverse Pilots sometimes what we try not doing something and saying no to something or just not doing it.

So I'm seeing what the effects on learning from it sportlots templates and lots of things right respected.

Yes, right quotes it all the time in the most respected the best there ever was him to communicate and give back to people did I retrieve his through his annual conference for example, but that doesn't mean that he said yes.

It's an interesting story.

Tony Robbins.

Tell the story it is in his book on finance about Warren Buffett in which he basically failed to get Warren Buffett's to ever be interviewed for his book.

At least.

He's getting older and festivities Pride himself on being able to access these people and he's using all of those people and those relationships.

Excuse me to go to keep tapping him for an interview and an n and still is not getting anything and everything I could say on that subject.

I just don't think there's anything else I could do.

The best thing to say, no and I don't even think they have to be as I think you could just be very quiet happily.

Gently.

I you know, I'm I just don't think I could add anything to it so that you're not done everything I can do on that and it's so important but he's quoted as having said that the difference between successful people and very successful people is that very successful people say no to almost everything doing so I think what I'm trying to say it sometimes you can simply say no it does depend on the relationship in the request, but also I think sometimes it's just the best I can do this so I couldn't do anything beyond this to be working on.

This book is really important project energy and creativity right now to do this, right? I just can't get this wrong.

That's that's what I can do.

It's starting with the yes in some ways.

I think the best knows I really I really saying that yes that we're committed to saying what with what we're doing and you're right sometimes that if we've been respectful if we've been thoughtful if we've been useful within the parameters that we've identified, for example, if you can actually do a favor for some In 5 minutes, if you really have a system that allows it to be 5 minutes find 5-minute favor.

I'm a big believer in that discipline giving I'm a Believer in that but if you've made if then somebody is upset takes the victim approach is basically throwing a tantrum.

Yes to it as every great leader is is that a.

With an every great parent help with almost a daily basis made from some sort of tantrum.

It is a major tantrum because they didn't get the thing.

They want to have cost and we just have to be adults about it and mature about sit and and recognize you going to keep everybody happy all the time.

What sitcom is it for kids? Yeah, I've been right so you don't know about a practice accepting of those possible consequences for second.

If if we if we can get in this just gives me an option to to read also something that stuck with me from your book which was not just read the excerpts.

So this is a case study or a story of a gentleman named Jeff that i g e o f f and talks about his Progressive burnout effectively, but he he ultimately quote paid a high price to learn a simple yet essential lesson and that is protect the asset and then I thought this was worth mentioning for people who are type A personalities Achievers were very good at getting things done or Pride themselves on that.

And the code is as follows in the many hours Jeff's been trusting.

He came to see an interesting Paradox resting after a burnout interesting Paradox in his addiction to achievement for type A personality.

It is not hard to push oneself hard pushing oneself.

The limit is easy the real challenge the person who thrives on challenges is not to work hard.

He explains to any overachievers quote if you think you are so tough, you can do anything.

I have a challenge for you.

If you really want to do something hard say no to an opportunity so you can take a nap and I thought this might be a good place to explore the quarterly off site, which I don't recall is being explored very much in the book.

But I've heard it mentioned in some interviews that you've done.

I could you perhaps elaborate on what the personal courtly off site is.

It's it's me creating space for you to actually think long-term about what really matters in the great scheme of things.

They have a costly offsides.

And why do they do it? Because they said the proximate issues instead of seeing the same thing.

It's the same for the individual level.

We might buy my wife and I are off sites years ago and And that one of the things I did to the system to make sure we had a few people come together and bleeding that the protest but but underneath one of them could actually have a full day once every quarter get away from everything else and to think about the the long-term goals in and out of that process for us.

What you doing on that over the lost.

You shouldn't you trying to get clear view of Real life what's been going on with it? And then you said condoning forward long-term perspective.

What what would I like to be achieving? What what what feels important again? It's not just success sex isn't just goal-setting even sent the wrong goals.

It's what's a central to me what it feels like my mission to piss you end.

And I remember in that very first session that we did and that she was going to the Pro cess had identified a couple of things that were really important and I could tell they were they had been within her but they just have came to surface.

What would you expect me to say? She said I just had this vision of having a place.

With horses and it's not necessarily even though we would have known it wasn't even necessarily that and we don't have any horseback or nothing like that.

But but it was a sense of if we if we were to achieve what that means our children would grow up in a certain kind of environment.

It was like a symbol of a certain type of childhood and our children in the golden years, which means before that driving and after they're out to diapers and so it's like a magical.

Because you can do things you can make memories to Silicon Valley which is terrific and lots of ways, but it's not Shifted a whole sense of intent and we realized if we want to do this while I children is still in his golden years.

We going to have to move.

Sooner rather than later to be able to achieve this dream.

Otherwise, we could have achieved after at least the oldest is out of the house and then what was the point and so it was an inside strategic Insight that has had profound influence on to find such a place at someone and it took a while to do it, but it took a couple of years maybe maybe as much as that and now we live in a community that required to have space for you going to be around a lot of nature.

Are you going to be even the kind of people in some ways that you're around a certain value system that they care about those kinds of things.

And so and so.

That's a personal example of why to hold personal coffee off sites in kilts and Ben's are your your your narrative that you go forward.

Do you have any recommendations for other? Format best practices or any best practices for personal off sites visited.

Is it an afternoon? Is it a day is it two days is it in your living room? Is it off sites or thereabouts? You know, it's somewhere that's that's quiet uninterrupted.

I know some people I've never done this credit card-sized phones and going on a trip to space which is very hard to have these days.

So you want to be in an uninterrupted environment you want some not have texted email and all that available.

Recommend you either to the on your own or maybe with one of the person, you know, that design partner that you can that you can really go through the process.

I think that the longer the spectrum is the better, you know, the one I was referring to we actually started fry.

It's why life your own life and then going forward to the end of your life.

You have kids grandkids great-grandchildren or if there are children.

It's just the people that you would influence generation from now and it's that kind of Feud Vision that kind of level of perspective that helps to to draw up within you an unexpected Insight something that you already know, but somehow is being buried because you're you think about life in in the ingestion of reactive ways.

What questions are you asked related to or might you ask related to say your grandparents or great-grandparents it in that portion of the Obsession include I will first of all right.

It's it's own kind of lesson.

Actually, I think less than 5% of people not scientifically based on thousands of people many passes because I've asked this question to now cannot name the first and last names of each of the great grandparents, right? I cannot name the first and last name of the 408 name.

That's where we live at the country.

We live the the language we speak to everything was it was determined largely influenced by these people, but we know something about it if we know anything about we should gather it.

What what has lost it? What decisions have they made that still affect his even if we don't do anything about them as we know that where they moved to this country to move to this place? They lost it for good or ill what has lost it he is a grandparents if you got a lot more about the grandparents in general you're asking.

Okay, what positive things they do they still with you.

How did they change shape you the it in ways that you would want to to pass on to others what challenges did they bring into the table meaning to or not? Meaning to did you get you've been impacted by the seasons they made? That's true for almost everybody that be great very rare, you have old positive.

But but for most of us, it's pretty dysfunctional family history, but you get back a little ways for parents to understand.

What is that impact what has bad decisions been impact on the positively and negatively.

What am I grateful for? We going to blame them intelligently.

I blame you for this bad decision, but I also blame you for giving me my life.

This particular thing hard for bo4 buy for my mother father, but I also blame you for the fact that they could not around became strong and I've always always benefit from that strength.

You see the good in the bad you blame.

It tells you that you're looking at the whole picture and then you can see your life with some sort of perspective.

This is something I'm thinking birth till death.

If you don't getting people to think about the whole life from birth those that you are doing a good thing and I think it probably was a good thing and it's a long-term the most people think on a daily basis, but it's so insufficient necessary but insufficient suggested I mean, but like like like my Story begins it like like the story of my life is really about me what what a weird things to think.

Start my birth my death and what's happening between the narrative is so much richer than that and I got into that so that as I didn't move into the future.

I'm also doing the same thing.

So what what do I want my children grandchildren Generations, especially this idea? What do I want? My the generation that has forgotten me? What impact do I want to have on them? Then? It's good to be true that I great-grand children when they might be true, but that doesn't change just a memory change it is if impact out lost memory.

And so and so this expected this helps to reveal for us the difference between Good things and essenti