Seth Godin on How to Think Small to Go Big

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Hello, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show where does usually my job to deconstruct world-class performers to tease apart? The habits routines favorite books Etc dozens of things that you can act on from people ranging from chess prodigies to four star generals special ops Commander is to billionaires everybody in between professional athletes.

You name it in this particular episode.

We have an in-between sewed with Seth Godin his last episode which covers a lot of his bio and everything else.

We really dug into the weeds Superfund is long that when was about to two and a half hours long.

This one is short.

It's about 30 minutes long and you can think of it as philosophical steroid that listen to this takes a couple minutes to get warmed up.

So be patient, but there are some incredible gems and I listen to a few times including how to keep track of the right things and creating a narrative that serves you as opposed to handicaps you.

It's very Very simple, but it's a foundational skill in mine said that I try to practice myself in.

This was a fantastic reminder.

They're just some really pithy action of the things that you can Implement and I would suggest that you reflect on in journaling and so on Seth is the author 17 best selling books.

He is at this is Seth's blog on Twitter.

They've been translated into more than 35 languages.

He writes about the way ideas spread marketing strategic quitting leadership and most of all challenging the status quo in all areas, his books include and I'm sure many of you have read more than one lynchpin tribes the dip Purple Cow what to do when it's your turn and it's always your turn.

He sounded companies his blog which you can find.

My typing Seth in to Googles were the most popular in the world in 2013.

He was inducted into the direct marketing Hall of Fame and he is constantly shaking things up.

And pushing the envelope testing the impossible very very brilliant guy.

And with all of that said, please enjoy this round to with Seth Godin.

Thanks, Tim for having me what a pleasure to be back.

I will start by pointing out.

How are your diet intelligent good-looking generous and thoughtful most of the people who listen to this podcast are I was optimistic that as we die for you these questions in his Tim continues to a long Arc of what he's trying to talk about people will see over and over again that in in an economy based on connection real connection comes from people who seek to contribute to the Community First and then that asset the trust that comes from that is priceless.

So I look like a lizard and a few other questions that have to do with What it was like to be in a movie with James Franco who I've never met.

So I've never been in a movie with James Franco.

I find that there are few groupings one grouping was talking about education in parenting.

Another grouping was the mechanics of marketing and our biggest grouping was an understanding of the fear that each of us has to deal with in order to do this original work.

I tried alphabetizing the questions in grouping them.

I failed at that.

So maybe what I'll do is go through them and as they prompt other thoughts are weave those together so start with the James roll-off who kicked us out for the question.

What's the one thing that most marketers do wrong? And this is easy.

I were selfish.

We are narcissist infantile narcissists who believe that our need for more and our desire for attention.

Everything else we justify and rationalize our work and interrupt people spam people yell at people to see if people and play the short-term game again and again and again successful marketers are successful because they don't do that and it turns out that that scares the folks were willing to build a story that's true to earn permission to create a product or service that spreads merely because it's remarkable that mindset almost never shows up next question from Pavan.

Konwar.

How do you build a tribe from scratch? I think it's fundamental Humanity.

It's been around for thousands and thousands of years, but in the modern world in which we live we can get confused.

Because it might seem that our job is to build a tribe from scratch but most of the time that's not what happened.

Nike did not invent the running tribe.

They're already Runners before Nike showed up.

Harley-Davidson did not invent the outside or try a group they call themselves for 1% long before the other 1% is what we do when we leave a tribe often is we find people who are already connected and we merely show up to lead them and for most businesses most opportunities, we don't even leave them.

We merely service a tribe that already exists so that when you find a group of people who share an instinct an interest a connection a leader of goal and you give that group of people something with which they can take action do I abbreviate that long sentence is Like us do things like this.

Once you're able to say People Like Us do things like this.

Then you have found a tribe that can revolve around what you do.

Switching over to the fear aside.

Jenny westerkamp asked what limiting self-belief did I change in order to become successful? And how did I change them? This was actually work that I did on myself in college and have tried to continue doing on myself for a long time since then the self-limiting beliefs infect all of us because all of us like being competent, we like being respected.

We like being successful and when something shows up that threatens to undo all of those things well, and it's really easy to avoid it and what goes hand-in-hand with that is the sour mindset the mindset of we are not getting what we deserve the mindset of the world is not fair the mindset of why should I even bother it's probably not going to work and one thing those of us who are lucky enough to live in a world where we have enough.

Have a roof and we have food is we find ourselves caught in this cycle of keeping track of the wrong thing keeping track of how many times we've been rejected keeping track of how many times it didn't work keeping track of all the times.

Someone has broken her heart or double-crossed us or let us down.

Of course we can keep track of those things.

But why why keep track of them are they making us better? Wouldn't it make more sense to keep track of the other stuff to keep track of all the times that worked all the times.

We took a risk all the times.

We were able to brighten someone else's day that when we start doing that we can redefine ourselves as people who are able to make an impact on the world and it took me a bunch of psychos to figure out that the narrative was up to me.

And if a narrative isn't working.

Well then really why are you using it and now it isn't done to you the narrative is something that you choose and once we can dig deep and find a different narrative then we ought to be able to change the game.

So moving just a tiny bit Sideways from this chill Ellington best name of anyone who has a question.

So far asks, my opinion on quality vs quantity in the age of the constant hustle mindset in online marketing.

Can you win without being everywhere? Of course you can the real question is can you win while being everywhere? None of us are everywhere.

There are most of the people on earth have never heard of you or and most of the people online have never connected with either of us.

It's a trap a giant trap a trap designed to suck our attention and are content away from us and give us very little in return maybe a little heart-shaped thing or buttoned or Trend that makes us feel like we did a good job.

This is all a trap.

This isn't what's causing people to succeed.

It's not causing people to be able to make the impact that they seek my suggestion is whenever possible ask yourself.

What's the smallest possible footprint I can get away with what is the smallest possible project that is worth my time.

What is the smallest group of people who I can make a difference for or two because smallest is a Chiva book smallest feels risky because if you pick smaller than you fail now you really screwed up.

We want to pick up big cuz Infinity is our friend Infinity.

Is safe Infiniti gives us a place to hide.

So I want to encourage people instead to look for the small to be on one medium in a place where people can find you to have one sort of interaction one.

Try with one group where you don't have a lot of Lifeboat.

This is what you do.

This is what people need to look to you for some before I dive into a bunch of good questions about education.

I wanted to talk about the long cut one of the cultures it's present on the Internet is this idea of the shortcut to life hack the way to get into the energy of a system more quickly and easily.

I'm an outspoken proponent of the long cut because it seems to me that the long cut is the most direct route to get to where you seek to go that the brands that we are aligned with the institutions that we care about the people we admire they all took the long cut.

The lawn cut is the Beatles playing in Hamburg for months and months or Bob Marley slowly but surely working his way from where he was to where he ended up.

That's a long cut is a different game.

It's not giving yet.

It's not even giving giving giving yet.

It's just what does this community need and more important? How do I do a kind of work that matters that's mine and mine alone that's identified with me.

That's difficult.

So whenever possible I'm looking for the long cut because it turns out that is the single best way to make the change that we seek to have happen which lease education Carlo D'Angelo asked us about public school and I've got a book EFX you from Jason happy.

She wants to know how I'd approach Mastermind groups.

There are other people who have asked about the alt MBA including two of the Alton ba grads who are following you I'm looking for their names.

If it's Justin Taylor wants to know how the alt MBA with look for grade K to 12.

John Robinson and Bill O'Neill both asked questions about it as well.

So here we go.

And stop stealing dreams.

I basically pointed out to public school is an artifact of the Industrial Age that it was invented by industrialists who need compliant Factory workers.

This model is feeding its leaving people in hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt without the jobs that they seek the idea that you could go to someone and they tell me what to do and then they will pay you a lot of money is fading faster than ever and it's being replaced by people who know how to do two things, which is what I think school ought to be teaching one how to solve interesting problems meeting how to do a thing.

You can't look up on the Internet meaning how to do something where no one can tell you how to do it.

And to lead have the guts to say follow me.

These things are in scarce Supply in the main reason.

They're insecure Supply is so people are taught to do them in our culture isn't organized around them.

So what do we do about school or the first thing we do when it comes to thinking about parenting is not to tolerate but to embrace the idea of free-range kids kids who are learning what works by figuring out what doesn't that the lessons that we remember are the lessons we learned the hard way.

I can't remember the last time I said to myself when I was in 5th grade or 7th grade or 10th grade we read about this in a text book.

But I remember really well something I screwed up and second grade and then I learned how to fix on my own.

So when the kid comes home with a solid B+ average and in one grade, that's a c minus.

The industrialists mindset is cause trouble around the c-minus figure out how to make someone well-rounded help them understand how important it is that meat stack the alternative is to encourage our kids to find things that don't work to experiment with things that they're not good at to explore yet.

Another thing.

That didn't turn out right if they approached in the right Spirit if they approach it with the right intent and that process of learning through exploration is too often missing and one of the ideas that I'm really enamored with is the idea of enrollment enrollment is not what happens when you sign up with the nearby school and then they threatened to throw the parents in jail, if the kid doesn't show up in class enrollment is what we call it when someone is eerily prescient when a consultant has enrollment from a client the client is saying to her.

Yes, we want to move forward show us how as opposed to the Consultants having to cajole and push and basically Encourage the client to go forward enrollment is different woman is something we want to do.

So the key element of the Alton VA begins with enrollment in that you're not there to get a piece of paper cuz there isn't one you're not there because it's accredited because it's not you're there because you want to level up there online courses like Coursera, which Michael sweetie asked about and other boots and self-directed learning all of them work best when they are things we choose to do.

There's an important distinction because most of the education that most of us have had is not education we enrolled for or if we didn't roll we enrolled once at the beginning and then we were waiting for the 2-year MBA to be over while we were waiting for the driver ed class to be over.

We were actually seeking to engage in the work itself.

So we have to figure out how to do whether it's for third graders or for a mook is continue to amplify this cycle of enrollment continue to create an environment where people would miss it.

if there was a snow day they would miss it if someone said We have to do that page.

There's a famous Bar review course that used to happen in your cock deeper.

And what people would do you pay thousands of dollars to take this course is he would stand in front of the class and read his notes? And then every once in awhile, he want stop and tell him that act up Tori would say not for your notes and everyone would drop their pencil and start talking to each other ignoring him until he would then say notes.

No one took the bar exam Force cuz they wanted to learn something.

They all took the bar exam course so he can get the bar exam over with and I think what we're seeing in our culture now as it's being rearranged is We get to do what we want to do if we care enough but caring enough means we've got to figure out.

How to move forward we have to figure out where the sphere is and engage with it 7 questionnaire for way Johnston do I ever have fear if so, how did he deal with it? And if not, when did it stop but I don't think it's ever going to stop and I most people I know are sociopaths and Psychopaths.

They have fear as well.

Hardwired into us they are kept our ancestors alive fear isn't stupid.

But lately fear is incorrectly process that being afraid of public speaking is a bug in our operating system cuz public speaking isn't actually dangerous.

It just feels dangerous.

Can you make the fear go away? Well, some people say they can I'm not sure that it's true.

I think they're what we can do is dance with the fear that one of the things we do in the Alton VA is we put people through 13 different projects in public some group some solo and one of the reasons for that hit to create a cycle of shipping.

Why because once you get into the cycle of shipping you begin to associate the fear with producing work of value and that idea that you can use fear as a compass that you can say.

Why is this making me nervous? Maybe that nervousness is telling me where I need to go not the other way around.

Jumping around a little bit David Mooring wants to know are you now my blog? My email is my books my network.

How would I go about building a crime and making a Ruckus today starting with zero anybody noise in the amount of content produced today.

Do I think I could go back to my current level of prominence and impact, you know, my current level of an impact is largely based on lock.

I showed up a lot but so did a lot of other people I wrote a lot but so did a lot of other people I had some good ideas.

But so did a lot of other people and everyday I remind myself that someone how to get lucky in certain respects and was me there are other things.

I tried other things I built that didn't work other people got lucky in those areas, not me.

I'm not vain enough.

to believe that it's all my doing and I won the parent lottery I grew up in the right decade in the right country at the right time and some lucky breaks along the way made a big difference, but that wasn't your question was how would I make an impact today? Here's where we get back to that idea of the smallest possible Market too often and I really don't like the blog post about companies that raised another 10 million dollars to companies that were valued another 50 million dollars who don't even have a product you this is not news.

This is not success.

This is another stop along the road, but it's not something that we need to Aspire to what those organizations are generally doing there are exceptions, but what they are generally doing is postponing the day they need to say to a customer.

Please pay me money that we do lots of things to hide from that day.

We say we're planning we're prepping we're raising money.

We're trying for a bigger Market.

What's wrong with the small-market? Can you create something of value for three people? Can you create a value for 9 people? Is there a tribe of 12 skateboarders down the road that you could engage with that you can have an influence with that you could make a profit with because if you can't do it with 12 or you can't do it with 20 or you can do is 50 what makes you think you're going to be able to do with 5,000 or 50000? It doesn't get easier.

It gets the same that postponing it wait for the perfect ride waiting for the perfect idea of the perfect book title the perfect this the perfect that or Worse looking for shortcuts and hacks and ways to conceal ourselves.

From what we're capable of doing.

I think these are all mistakes.

I think the win the giant opportunity.

Is the change one person? Teach one person influence one person find a market where someone needs what you have.

So I started Really Presley The Soloist and 86 selling books to book publishers 1986 book publishers needed more books than they had that almond action detailed long top books are hard to write there weren't enough people who could write them.

I was one of those people I don't the team that could package and create these books and I have rejected again and again and again and again until I understood how to talk to people in that industry in a way that they could hear me in a way that they could understand and respect and then I was able to sell them in the magic of this.

Is it pays for itself? You don't do the book until someone pays for it.

Once they pay for it you have enough money to do the box.

So I didn't need funding I didn't need somebody to support the prospect of what I was doing because the client Was paying for it and that's not always true.

They're certainly important businesses that have been built with a more slow approach where people don't pay for a long time to come.

We're Google was busy, you know being Google for a lot of people before they made a penny those businesses have a plate but they don't have to be your business your business can be about engaging with people who trust you delivering value to them and making enough money to do it again, and we can hide from us.

Top we shouldn't pretend that that's not the best plan going public isn't the purpose selling your company isn't the purpose.

The purpose is creating value for someone who will pay you for it so you can do it again.

So then there's some questions about personal brand John wants to know how I Define my own personal brand Neil's victim wants to know when the right time to start working on.

Your personal brand is down there a couple questions hear from people like Eric and Ian and Jeff about how I pick what my next project should be in what size I didn't either related to let me try what's your brand is your brand your logo? Well, that's because we're unit we don't have logos.

So what is your brand? I think your brand is the promise that you make implicitly or explicitly.

What do I expect from? But I hire you when you show up in my headphones when we engage, what's the promise brands that keep their promises are consistent bran to keep your promises earn trust and do permission when you have a brand when you want one or not from the minute you engage with your boss or your co-workers or Prospect or customer or even the person at the Avis Rent-A-Car, after you have a brand you're branded as the impatient customer was not listening or you're branded as the cam professional who gets the job done or you are branded as the short-term Hustler was always looking for an angle.

But yes, you have a break.

So when did you start working on it yesterday or a year ago or five years ago if it's too late for that the next best time is right now.

Your brand is a story and it's a story that helps people tell themselves a story about you.

So your appearance your handshake your pricing how long it takes you to deliver the goods where you're located your accent how tall you are even the way you spell your name are all parts of the story that other people tell themselves about you and most of those stories are unfair.

Most of the stories are based on Prejudice and a lack of information and fear and fear and fear.

The stories people tell themselves about you are never true.

They can't be no one knows you as well as you do.

I've given a thousand speeches.

No one has heard all of them except for me.

Right? I've written 18 best sellers.

Most of you haven't read all of them written 6000 blog post again.

And again and again you go down the list so many things we don't know about you so many things we don't know about what you're capable of what you dream of what you want to produce.

So yes, you haven't bran and no it's not the same for everyone but it's up to you to consistently and persistently show up in a way that amplify stepcraft that if you were the kind of person that can justify doing the next thing you do cuz it's an emergency.

Well, that's part of your breath from the other hand.

There are things that others would do that.

You wouldn't in this moment that also is part of your brand.

So when I was a book packager, I had a brand at the beginning which was it.

I would Stanford MBA who was going to Great pains to show how prepared he was a professional e wasn't yes smarter about the market and the editors.

I was selling to and they responded to my grand by buying nothing from me because it didn't match the story.

They needed to tell themselves about what they were doing.

So I deliberately and intentionally change my friend stop putting spreadsheets in my proposals stopped wearing a suit to my meetings work hard to listen to what it was that they were trying to tell me and what it was that they needed from me so that I could deliver to them on the promise.

They wanted me to make that mindset requires you to commit to the marketplace you want to be because if one minute you're selling steam shovels and the next minute you're selling life insurance and the minute after that you're helping people beat a traffic ticket.

No one can figure out who you are.

No one can figure out what to expect from you next.

So as my late friend Zeke used to say there's a difference between being a meaningful specific and a Wandering generality wandering generality is looking for the next thing all the time and as a result, they can't possibly build a brand.

Current time in says well, how do I decide what is essential indispensable or what is useless to pay my attention.

It comes back to the branch to the promise to what you stand for and is Michael schrag is pointed out to the change that you were seeking in the world.

If you're trying to make a specific change, it becomes much easier to decide what is essential to make a specific change to a specific person or group of people it becomes much easier to not be abstract.

But specific that has Jack Frost is wondering about yes, there is practical advice once you decide What change you are seeking to make that it's really not that difficult for Nike to decide to do something or not do something because they stand for something because they've made a promise should Nike get into the Corn Chip business while they could probably make money in corn chips at least for a while because they have a lot to invest and you know how to run ads and have distribution.

However corn chips don't match the story that Nike is telling to the people they're trying to tell it to give you a little Brandy aside here.

Stories told years ago that Nike was sold in Sears stores and that Nike and Sears had an agreement that Sears would never run an ad in the Sunday circulars DFS eyes that run in the Sunday paper for Nike shoes.

Well some low-level percent of Tears MTG.

Well ran an ad ones and Nike responded by pulling all their products from every Sears store in America.

Well, That freaked out the leaders at Sears and they frantically called and calls Phil Knight to see if they can fix things and tell him I refuse to speak to me.

They're taking matters into their own hands.

They flew to the West Coast, Oregon to meet with him and Phil had them sit in the lobby not outside his office.

But in the main lobby of the Nike building from 9 in the morning to 5 at night and then he sent them home.

I don't think I would ever humiliate somebody like that but he did it for a reason because every one of his employees walk past these two people from Sears sitting in the lobby being punished in public because they had done something that didn't match the promise then that he was trying to make part of Nikes promise was to Big retailers, which is we're not in future particularly.

Well, cuz we stand for something other than treating the Retailer's really well, but a big part of the promise was weird.

About what we do and how we do it and our customers understand that and we need to understand it as well.

So part of what we seek when we build one of these bright as a human is a narrative boundaries a way of figuring out what we stand for and what we don't stand for.

To everyone but to the people we are seeking to change and one of the reasons why I'm not a big fan of online comments and I like how much open to everyone not the people you see to change online comments are not not the people you seek to change.

So hearing from those people will push you to be more average were normal more low-key more in the middle, but that's not what brands are built brands are built around the edges.

We have a couple quick with your about Purple Cow about standing out in a field where everyone is trying to Maher jobanputra and tone Rob Ne-Yo instead ask similar question telemarketing change as more people leave full-time and get into the gig economy how we supposed to stand out in a crowded field.

How can you keep the cow purple? Well, you're right neophilia the desire for the new eats its own Ian.

It means that Jackson Pollock is old-fashioned.

It means that Hamilton is yesterday's play or it will be one day soon.

And if you decide to live on that edge sign up for what you're getting and what you're getting is this industry where what's new is the Dominick question.

But it turns out you and being don't merely need that.

What you mean being really need is to be connected to be seen to be understood to get what they need when they need it.

And that means that you can find a group of people.

It doesn't have to be very many where you are the consistent regular Choice.

You're not going for neophilia in this place.

You're going for people who are happily engaged in the center of the market doing productive work and when you become the key Supply or to these people, you're not getting that gig because you do a commodity a little cheaper than everyone else you're getting that gig cuz you're better better knowing them better being flexible better it going the extra mile better at keeping your promises that we can come out of ties our work by making our work more human.

And that is so hard because when you make it human, it means you're responsible.

Responsibility is different than Authority responsibilities taken Authority is given so we can each take more responsibility by becoming better at our craft trusted by a group of people who need and want to hear from us.

Okay and to wrap this up we have questions from Jeff Shore and from a few other people about how I choose projects what scale I want the projects to be how I keep from getting distracted in the middle of a project.

I answer here and for the people who want me to give you practical step-by-step bullet.

I apologize, but my answer here is simple at some point.

You need to decide who you are.

You need to decide the scale of what you do you need to decide what the brand is when people hire you when they engage with you.

I used to make 700-page reference books between to four or five people who would work for over a year to make something that could really stand the test of time.

The choice I was able to go into a publisher.

I can confidently say I do that do I do Broadway shows? No, do I do TV series know I do this and we can't once we pick our scale and our project XC instantly nor can we complain that picking one scale keeps us from doing the other thing we have to embrace the fact is it helps us that we have a sinecure that we help that we have a niche that we have a thing that we do cuz when other people want to be in our space Just for kicks, they can't cuz they're not us at our scale with our contribution to make and someone me to look at social media when we look at all the opportune.

Usually look at all the conferences we can go to we say to herself.

Does this Advance me in the change.

I am trying to make to the community does this help my customers? Because it makes it easier for me to keep my promise.

Years ago.

My dad used to run the biggest Hospital could company in the country bought a laser cutter.

Not one of those little Kickstarter laser cutters or laser cutter that cost $10.

Buying a laser cutter the cost $2000000 when you run a multimillion-dollar hospital-cook company is a really smart thing to do because that asset and it's an app that you own it you use it that asset in Ableton to transform the quality of what he was making the time to Market it help to make all of his promises better.

That's what happens once you own the decision, so I'm going to finish I thinking you and him again and hope that you've taken away from this and thank you for Lending me your time these ideas about fear and the compass and the promises and the brand and about doing work that yours and yours alone and owning it and connecting two people finding a tribe and contribute to them.

I hope you'll go make a raucous.

Thanks.

Hey guys, this is Tim again.

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Also wanted to avoid that your stylist free shipping is always free and you have 10 days to try on the clothes risk-free and trunk club is back by Nordstrom which means they have the highest standards and quality and customer service if you can Saving time or looking good.

Check it out a truck club.

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Again.

That's trunkclub.

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This episode is brought to you by gymnastic bodies.

Comes the train system that I am most obsessed with at the moment and I don't get paid any commissions or anything like that.

You may have heard coach summer on the podcast to design a program for national team coach for men's gymnastics.

I'm not easily impressed and I've just been completely blown away by the specification of his programming the Elegance of his programming.

I've been using gymnastic bodies for just a few months now and I feel more flexible stronger and younger than I have in years and it sounds cheesy to hear myself say that but it's true.

That's the hardest part and you can check it out gymnastic bodies.

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Campo Tim.

You can take a look at the fundamentals course job.

Diagnose your weakest Point areas to improve Etc and I highly encourage you to take a look at this body weight training system.

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