Tobi Lütke — From Snowboard Shop to Billion-Dollar Company (#359)

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Hello boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show.

Where does my job each and every episode of to deconstruct a world-class performer from any number of different domains business Sports entertainment military and so on and today's guest who will perhaps debate that he himself is world class, but I will not allow it is Toby liquor who is the founder and chief executive officer of Shopify CEO that is of shop on 2004 Toby begin building software to launch an online snowboard store called snow devil it quickly became obvious that the software was more valuable than the snowboards set Toby and his founding team launched the shop by platform in 2006.

He has served as CEO 6th 2008 at the company headquarters in the metropolitan epicenter of tech.

Ottawa, Canada.

Fantastic ways are beaver Tails.

Also incredible.

Toby isn't is an active advocate for computer literate? In education and serves as a board member of Canada learning code all-caps CLC Canada learning code in organization working to give all Canadians access to digital scales in 2014.

Toby was named the globe Mills CEO of the year.

He served as chair of the digital Industries table and Advisory Board commission by the federal government to provide recommendations on how to turn Canada into a digital leader and that report was published that is of the table in September 2018, Toby welcome to the show.

This is a long time coming we go we go way way back we'll get to that but I thought we could start with your penchant related to optimization.

So I want to do a quick fact check here.

So this is something I came across and then you were gone.

It doesn't surprise me.

But here's how it goes.

I also have a weird obsession with optimizing thinks this is supposed to be quote of yours.

Even when I was walking to elementary school.

I counted the number of steps on different route so I can figure out which one of the shortest and I'll just I'll just finish this up.

So.

.

.

I'll just connect some things if I had to do something once that's fine.

If I had to do it twice.

I'm kind of annoyed if I had to do it three times.

I'm going to try to automate it.

Did you count steps my mom my sister and I know my sister was complaining about me trying to talk to my something.

I think we would talk about going for a walk and I'm like, well if it please be starting from it's the same as a destination.

Why don't you just not girlfriend and my mom Unfortunately, I'm probably testing the way too much about meeting.

So I don't know why was made it into the New York Times.

I'm actually kind of unhappy about this right now, but he'll be up and here we are and the the optimization or the looking for efficiency.

Is that something that you're you're either of your parents has or does that seem to come out of left field? I don't know.

It's unexplained kind of work switch and laughter are probably many many years where it's annoying everyone around me suddenly start becoming use for the red light after you know it because you know as a pro, it's it's it's been wonderful.

I love you.

So what machines are, you know can understand every chip that's in the machine.

You can try to figure out what's what try to you know, make a video game in the 90s was really hot and so attracted me to give people a snapshot of where things are now and we're going to certainly continue with this.

Prospective rewinding the clock but how big is is Shopify at the moment? What are some of the numbers released in 2006 which again that's almost like a hundred internet years ago, right? It's it's it's it's been a long time and the company now has a public company it some about four and a half thousand people look at the shop if I have offices in last year across Canada, but also and you know, but then and now Australia and so on and also tell places we have about are all around the world hundred 75 countries, and so I'm so I'm so I'm so it's it's it's become this By almost any metric fantastic success.

I was mentioning when we're having lunch before this that I was unpacking some boxes that I died not yet unpacked from my move from San Francisco to Austin and I found the the coin from the initial public offering and it really made me smile because I remember when we first met Shopify heads would you say 15 people teen people and that was that was with a 2008 or 2002 tell what your member of that first meeting.

Where did where did where did we first met at a conference Rubicon JL Scott Ruby and breast-feeding.

The technology Shopify has been broken and you are invited.

Keynote speaker.

I think you did an interview with David.

That's right.

So I think we talked in The Green Room psych.

Hey, I love everything about your book.

But the best part about it is you keep talking about using Yahoo's to us for you.

And you know, what can I do to convince you of that the wreck that was probably really shy but the timing was perfect also because I was in the process of doing the final editing for the revised edition of the of the 4-Hour Work week and I have been pulling my readers through social media in the blog and so on which had that that time you looked like already at that point and millions of readers and asking for suggestions for updates for the tools and resources and Shopify.

What's the most consistent recommendation for e-commerce platform? And then I go to this this conference we meet in the speakers room effectively.

What's a 15 or so employees and that was the beginning of our exchanges and then collaboration which which will get into but it on one hand seems like a previous lifetime and on another hand just does not seem that long ago and I have to say for people who press Wonder this who does money change people.

I have to say it's been so I didn't expect you to change and you didn't and it's really refreshing.

I typed this publicly but Shopify is one of those companies where everyone I've ever been involved with has been to such a genuinely good person.

It's an example of when the good guys have have one in a way and it's it's it just makes me so happy that you guys have had the outcomes that you had so So much.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just want to start their it's it's really just it gives me so much joy to think about and let's get back to your odd behavior as a kid This Is Us From A Separate Peace.

This isn't going to be all quotes with some of these are just so fantastic.

I can't I can't not mentioned is from Globe and Mail and that this this I think speaks to a superpower of yours may have caused problems in the beginning and I recall reading a quote and I'm going to butcher it but Francis Ford Coppola director incredible legendary filmmaker and said, you know you receive lifetime achievement awards for the things that would have gotten you fired in the beginning the test because he has a use the quote.

This is a writer from an early age.

Look ahead when he calls Authority problems in schools in koblenz.

Germany he preferred to deconstruct the questions teachers gave him rather than deliver the expected answers and I was like, yep, that sounds right.

He took shortcuts determining the minimum number of hours.

He needed to spend in a particular class and still pass that he could spend most of his time with his computer one of the patterns that I have observed with you over the years that I think is so so valuable and so simultaneously important but undervalued are under discussed is not just asking the question in front of you but dissecting it to determine if it's the right question.

So could you elaborate a bit on that or think of any examples that they could serve as a launching off point or or even maybe start with why you do that? Yeah.

Yeah.

Why was already great and interesting places and yeah, I'll talk about my 40 problem that my obsession with optimization.

So where do we go from here? But just curious what will forward you Poppin thing has moved into and I think this is this is exactly the sort Pivot Point from which event from problematic to explain two values for and that is I have a serious problem just so accepting autopsy.

Like he is how things are done missed it kind of it doesn't that doesn't grab me in any particular way.

And so what episode is German for myself is what I really want to understand the situation and the various precious acting on the situation that I might get myself into it.

So you were taking us back with your if a little coin but you found which is one of us artifacts the New York Stock Exchange gives you when you take a company public and then WB because two of us together Before that day.

Can you actually ring but battle you at least traditionally that companies like Spotify and slacker now between without listing which I think is really really happy for that particular industry.

But before that event you you work with bankruptcy you built this prospectus and then what and then when you go on a road show and all these kind of things you little Goose been a grueling talk about I don't want to do a Thing 2 x 2 1/2.

I like three times.

I had to give the same presentation to a hundred and three times in a daze.

It's if it's absolutely it was a complete.

Hey Toby's version of hell.

It was good to have these people around who can sign into Harley Harley probably the person I've heard most described as a force of nature by phrase applied to Harley.

I'm rich.

I'm decidedly not I'm so I wanted to automated all the way through but just I'm taking it back there because I think this is this a good example of this kind of thinking one thing.

I did very well in the process of actually taking a company public was too noticed understand like how could shop if I could come pick a good puppy company, but it was obvious agency problem that exists on the investment banker side to bed.

And so I spent a good cup of talking to people figuring out what kind of things happened in the performance review of investment bankers.

Like how do they make their money? How do they make their bonuses? How do you know how to how to move a string to give a Korea? What's good? What's bad? You know if they get a lot of these kind of fees, is that good for them was at neutral if a you know, Because this is what I would like to come to a conclusion that I can often.

If this is the same conclusion that Orthodoxy would have just send me to myself because I want I want to say okay I'm going to do these following things because the iPhone first principle argued that this is the right thing to do and I think that's more often than not actually it's very interesting inside so you can say okay because I understand what's up at play here.

I can disagree with someone suggestion and I can maybe improve something slightly and I think an interesting way Shopify is a very long exercise and doing this over and over and over again.

Probably been saying, okay well, The internet needs online stores where super important entrepreneurship is one of the biggest Economic Opportunity online, which is one of the biggest entrepreneurial opportunities of a lifetime.

It's like 1.

9 trillion dollar industry now it's going to be for trillion soon.

Honest to us need to be something that people can create.

Okay cool, but the people really care what online stores selling right eye care about becoming successful entrepreneurs may become of State Bay care about reaching for Independence and the success of like a fat so that pretty quickly send us into a direction say okay if that's the thing but it's actually built with software that actually supports people in the activity of reaching for Independence and and because of his it became something as and then and then success game for bad.

Will this this also it in a way Connect some dots from earlier today.

When were chatting about a mutual friend Seth Godin and not too long ago.

I had this conversation when he gave the example of I was just borrowed from an example here at red, but he elaborated on that which was a secret.

No one wants a quarter inch drill bit.

They want a quarter inch hole.

They don't really want to Corners whole they want a shelf and they don't really want to show me what a place to put their books and so on and so forth.

So you don't seem to miss steak the current characteristics of a temporary solution as the ultimate objective be sorted itself into Solutions.

That's long gone.

Anyway, like why I mean just be looking back at my industry.

Like, why was there a Online store industry and a point-of-sale system industry and all these eBay powerseller to like each of us has some departments to sell it for whatever channel.

Do you want to go to the free for five different vendors to get software to to to participate in all these channels know you just want to do it.

And so I think it's it's it's a really rough going for life into saying about hold on a second like what are people actually trying to accomplish.

What is the actual problem here? I think the most impressive story along those lines I've ever come across this you familiar with that, cleans story around the invention of a shipping container.

I'm not but I've had a book about shipping containers recommended to me multiple tall is probably the box yet.

What was the name of the person on Pinterest food absolute value podcast if you would be alive right now, right because I spent the first money out of college on vinyl truck started the trucking company and try to get things shipped across the country or even to Europe and realized like we can make the most efficient Trucking system or the train guys have the most efficient trains sent about guys that have ships all over the world, but getting something from Woodville stations is impossible.

Like you have to unload everything is all the next so you ended up just buying a bunch of tankers from the US Navy Surplus tank of Savannah before 2 and just came up with this idea of putting a shipping container together, but you can put things in the factory in Maine and then bring the ship them all the way to Berlin and the moment.

That's the cost of sending like a unit of good been told him.

I think $6 to $0.

16 is incredible.

We all live in that comes but because for chicken cordon has been hugely influential in history.

It's like a lot of people talk about Free Trade Agreement and globalization in reality.

It's a tree and that it's it's a fascinating until I would like rapper on the Explorer story.

But what's so cool about this is the reason why he put this off it's because I got into the Vanderbilts and the train guys really love the trains and then the podcast love God and he was the only person who just cared about moving things.

He wanted to solve the problem of moving fixing to go out and then you come to bed at Solutions and we need more of that kind of thing the the versatility I don't I get to of taking off track with the shipping container when I was the disease.

Millions of the modular design and the ability to take a single container and move it across different means of transport.

Is is endlessly fascinating Topic in a lot of folks also don't realize the true genius of the design of shipping containers and the considerations of the dimensions and the ability to cool or control temperature in the entire aftermarket use of shipping containers.

Also, just how I get him into that kind of backed into it looking at different types of design and construction.

That book was called The Box the box so since since we're talking about it might as well might as well just hit on on something.

I was going to ask about anything anyway, which is which is books.

See your of I would say yes above racious but very selective consumer of information and there's a lot of garbage out there.

You mentioned the Box there's another book and I think it might have been a Harley's office where I first saw it at Shopify but high output management by Andy Grove one of the best books ever.

So I want to do and then another one that I've listed here is drive by Daniel pink.

I'm not sure if you if you want to comment on that but could you mention a few books that you have found particularly helpful, maybe start with high output management and why that is a good book.

So I text you back to the early days.

I started a Shopify as you know, hey, I only want to do the technology and program a byte rate.

Right? So this is my book and I wanted to treat business as a black box for the first couple of years and then for various reasons, I was a frost into also having to take over the business side of Shopify around that time.

I should be mad and I did apologize if people I knew for two books to read because it was a business that was knee-deep in Martin Fowler and then can back and always going to be it's just funny because it tells you how good that selection process voice because I still think what's a problem.

They would rank in the top five books I've ever read and I had to completely wrong view about how good business books and influence by telling me exactly what you two books to read unapologetically Amazon how to make a manual that the kind of disc deconstructs the word of business into its interface principles.

It's like yes, what matters is how to think about it? No one needs a degree this there's a little bit of circumstantial contact social understanding that you just have to have but basically It is basically the end of the day making a business and Engineering exercise and pitches really in for me because that's like that they're actually connected but that made the war thing about becoming a CEO significantly less scary to me because you know engineering.

And an inference was just the most mind-bending book you can imagine because it's essentially to it told you all the ways humans are flawed and inferential and how yes computers are predictable and you can deal with it.

But then once upon to make things for people you need to go into storytelling and your framing matters, but you're also news to me my teens with computers and other people so Flawless, but like she she she always says I'll send you off to a good start.

Sabo.

Voracious reader ferocious horse races at Brooks die slowly.

I think I actually wanted frankly.

I have very high recollection.

But because of this I have to be very selective.

So I'm not one of us a hundred bucks a year kind of people.

How do you how do you choose books now? Or maybe we is an example of the Box.

Why did that come on your radar? How did that make the cut and the fox came because I usually have a topic and then just dive right leg guy.

I dive into it like that in this case.

So I was like, hey, I'm running Shopify Shopify causes, you know billions like tens of billions of dollars of Commerce activity.

And most of this is going to go for a logistics network, but I don't understand and I feel my job as a CEO is have to have the most full stack understanding of every component into that.

That's at all related which is even better be a trait is almost the entire Human Condition.

So it's an endless source of interesting details of the topics.

But in this case, I was just exposed like where I'm at.

It's it's it's it's fascinating but because it's been built for Millennia and you know it like that but the Silk Road has still impact on the way, but Economy works today and then in stitching bee stings together as absolutely fascinating but just evening dose of the first okay.

Let me let me let me start digging it became pretty clear that there was a history before shipping container in history after shipping container and if in these situations and Essex specific data Everything Changes, like Industrial Revolution was another example of that.

I like to find the players like a people who had a lot of input on this kind of thing or just at least we have a front-row seat and then read their biographies because they don't tend to try to sell you anything.

Other than that this person played important role, but they tend to be the most credible witnesses to actually buy outside events without so much the bias towards convincing you about it was good or bad and so in this particular case, it was very easy.

That was actually a perfectly good book about exactly the guy who came up with it.

And so I've been obvious choice What other? Actually before we get two subjects in more books because this this may bridge over to something that I did not know.

I feel like I should have known this and makes perfect sense, but not know this.

So this this is this was one of your problem domain so we can discuss what that means.

When you became CEO and I have a question about that also, but this this is this quote from a media piece and psychic type are afraid to take a lot longer.

So you as part of his ears DPS as part of his self-directed crash course, he decide to fly to Silicon Valley and I'm going to pause here for a second because people listening might think of course you go to Silicon Valley to learn from Fantastic Outfitters and Son but it's it takes a different turn here, which I think is really indicative of how you were thinking how you apply for a structured thinking two things back to the bees.

He set up meetings with venture capitalist and listen to their questions about shop buys attrition rates in conversion rates and fun in France is the various means by which company attract attention and screws of commitment of new customers.

It's a long way to say that he had no idea what they were talking about, but he wrote down the term so then he went back to the hostel.

He was staying in Look that also tell you something hostile.

He was staying in and looked up everything Wikipedia.

He was and read up on how to calculate contribution margin ratio and the amount by which sales exceed variable pressure.

Cause then go to shop a database get the numbers.

Oh, he think that's an interesting way to look at the business.

Then at the next meeting.

He was able to answer one more question.

This is a really clever way to go about that time when you're learning by observing the questions and to finding the terms.

This is why I love podcast my favorite thing in the world.

That is like I got that but it's just one thing which is better which is being a fly on the wall when two experts Talk Amongst each other, right, which is one of us situations that was almost impossible to line up as an outsider and now suddenly is completely democratized for a wonderful invention of of of of podcasting.

But back then finding a check from a form that experts talked amongst each other.

It's something I was always seeking in this case.

So then when I was trying to have learned about some technology like some some esoteric 3D rendering I will but I was interesting.

I used to try to find like where people talk about optimizing these things and then I just don't understand anything but that talking about but then a chip away at it and it would come into the knowledge and so I tried to replicate this and nnnn talking to venture capitalist ended up being so if it way I figured out how to potentially do it basically again, I had no background in business.

I had no idea how this other guy had and I had to do it fast because it wasn't I wasn't doing it while I might like it was very very tough to keep the company alive.

So let's let's say this is maybe you could eat The opportunity to explain to people why you why you took over to see you just leave the circumstances like I did and did a million other things like find an office at some point.

But as the company much more to being a software company and started growing and for crime or more people at some point they gave us is a different situation and so he should have came to me and said decided that he wanted to transition out and that really, you know, I mean that has a surprising because again, I really wanted to treat business as a black box I at fault business if you don't like this Videos of black box is very diplomatic a diplomatic way to save as a programmer.

So I look for a long time.

I met with a lot of people who got came recommended as potential CEO Replacements and it was one of my early investors took me aside and said you will never find anyone who will care about you as much as you do and so you should just give this a go and that was pretty scary advice, but I like the challenge.

I mean, why do we do this thing? It's like It's it's such a silly idea.

Right like think about how irrational this is.

Not my fault, but like someone said like you you spend a hundred hours a week avoiding working 40 hours a week for someone as a chance on that send you don't do this for 4/4 at least 70, but I did not do this for a reason why I did it is because I thought it sounded amazing not to having to answer to anyone now back to I-40 Poppins and I want to make my own subject and I want to see what I can do, but I want to change myself and I said, This is the right time my life.

I was 24 and I started this is the right time of my life to give is a go.

I will learn at 1 no way.

This could be of failure on a personal level of a van in the way about you know, maybe people lose money real thing, but and you are and so bad I reconnected fast and said, okay, if is another challenge to become the business side of a business this one and I'm going to run again and so I travel to a second.

It's funny because I found this Hospital close to Santa Rosa RV Spirit back then and I bought a bike on Craigslist and then and despite to all these things I've ever Biking interviews, like leaning palaces of capitalism adding to the picture of that's that's that's that's perfectly accurate and I talked with him alone.

I found a phone but somehow I was bringing in some way because I actually did a lot of things.

I didn't actually run me out of the office, which is also speaks to Second out of your nuts 2 made it's an amazing place that you can take meetings with people who give me a time and advice and deposit it out.

Right? I got the dogs at 10 that I need to learn a lot about to send it to him since 1 but yeah, figure it out and I'd love to talk for wealth for sick person observation, which is how much how much fun it was for me and also destructive to meet you when I met you, right? That's really.

That is quite a transitionary.

In which to meet Toby.

So it's been really really fantastic to watch as things have evolved over time.

That now that said part of what makes it interesting is the good decisions but also the challenges and maybe some of the bad decisions.

Can you talk to in any order you like some of the some of the good decisions that you made and some of the bad decisions that you made when after taking on the role of CO2 have some sort of obvious.

Yeah, but I mean, it's almost every go to settings.

Somehow bad first, right that's happened has made a mistake and booked but the hours of a kind of company with one stew in a way and it has been so important to me to build a company that is kind of his unafraid of experimentation then and end with failure with in Shopify success succeeded in Bisbee be eliminated the talk of the term failure like they'd be renamed they call it the successful.

Free of something that did not book because I think it really changes people's disposition to it.

So, what did you do wrong like big tits? I was just going to say I mean bad want to interrupt your answer.

But if I think that what you just said could also take us in a pretty interesting direction.

If you if you want to buy some time to think about the others and not feeling the Steelers and quotation marks.

There are.

A number of things that seem paradoxical that I don't think are paradoxical in practice.

Maybe they are but I want you to to to comment on them and I just have to find the the right quote here.

I'll give you the first part.

So the first part is a quote of yours.

I believe your work here needs to make an impact like a crater Ryan's it's not as good work.

It's not excellent.

It's massive Cosmic impacted needs to be visible from outer space.

It's up to people you people are encouraged to take risks now.

Same time.

I like what I hear.

Toby Shannon, right.

This is receiving feedback from Toby be prepared to be crushed says she has vice-president of Relativity Nova Shannon.

If you can't be crushed you don't make it on the executive team you need Mexican.

It's not that it's not the Toby shelter treats people.

Mainly he's simply direct unfiltered when he looks at the fruits of someone's labor.

He says what he thinks even if what he thinks is this his shit.

Okay.

So, how do you How do you combine these two things successfully? Things I love about you is that it is you get you don't get the sugar-coated Kid Glove version of Toby's thought you get Toby's thought I should have you encouraged risk when the the feedback you receive at the end might be that was total ship.

You can do better 2015 and you know, since then I have learnt translate something like this is straight into is this really the best way we can do this, but it's I mean the same thing in a different form really, like I said, I hope it get the name, right? That's a specific editor of Africa PDF who I think was called end up at Kroger and heated Chromecast rules.

Which said that he wanted everyone to edit his Pages just to make them better and he didn't want people to apologize for it and try to put it to sleep like giving credit or something is that I'm going to take a hundred percent responsibility for my own mental state.

Like I cannot make me unhappy by just giving me feedback in some way.

So just give me varale feedback without all that like shit sandwich around me.

I love that.

I just I would like to run my team on Chromecast through it's because I think it's just this this so much time spend excess you have to talk to weather and then you know, whether that's a really nice productive character traits often was talking about something highly positive again so that you know, that's that's the standard formula and I can do it but I don't think that the highest performing teams in the boys should spend time doing this to each other.

I think there's a level of progression Reddit comes if you're part of one of the teams in again, like the one of the bigger technology companies in the word suddenly, I think the fastest growing sauce company on the market and so, you know, it's not like I want to compare too much to spoil.

Because Sports Has Its Spots spots, but this is like a big game right? Like I think it's a yes.

I want people to be impactful like again if the photo of a hot object collides with a soft object and suddenly like there's no crater to to prove it.

Right? And so I want people to take the Sacramento State and their own hands and just say, okay.

I'm going to learn how to be a be intrinsically reminded that I'm good at what I'm doing and not have to rely on other people constantly telling me do you help? Just shut my have any type of training or resources or cultural rules that are explicit that help to facilitate that type of awareness be there people who meditate for 10 years with that objective and never quite get there and you can hire the town you can already find the people like you could go out and you can hire Jocko willink right to run your HR department and but then their people to come in who might be exceptional performers very sensitive in some way.

I've run into that quite a bit.

But what do you do in a situation like that are what are the things that you do or the Shopify does to help people take that ownership of their internal State cuz it is hugely important.

Yeah, it's usually important.

So be it so need to wash up.

If I as I can get a little bit back to this.

Arabic a diving clearly as he said this is off the Beaten Track off the startup would end up being a phenomenally good place to build company, but for reasons that we're also not clear to me when I started a couple of things that happen when you're not in Silicon Valley, right.

Let's call it the primary light company creation City.

10 year gets longer if I hire someone service, they took her to the hiring process.

If you have visited an understanding a chance of us still talking to the event any others that you really high, right? I mean it's a commitment from both sides and of the company to be worth working for 10 years.

That's what I broke on the bottom because of that we can have a different relationship been in a place where they expected to 10 years is 18 months and in an 18-month size.

I really have that kind of access Evie good idea and nnn Denver productive power of an engineer so immediately I need to be productive guesses Eat Right Tampa Bay team in the name five of the companies for all pitching the same employees at those five companies be a headhunter.

Yeah, that's what was so in a place like this ends up for Better or For Worse in a world where people don't actually goat having koreasat companies anymore because the way to have a career is that you're jumping between companies.

Are you supposed to use your new position is August electricity higher and so well-liked that you have his long-term relationships and therefore Shopify in can invest in with people with pottershop if I in a completely different way.

So if you have a big amount of probably hired all business coaches in Canada and Britain & Beyond at this point to do before time and place of Shopify because Vivian guessing so much and in the people behind people on future high potential and then try to get them there as fast as possible because that actually works for us in for fortnite v-bucks four people and books for Shopify.

Fantastic siwa.

And so we have a lot of these opportunities because of that to to make some slight at its tube enormous.

I can write like so feedback is a gift and so is it such a simple sentence but really is not the way most people think about feedback and your back is a gift is a gift because it is it is it's not the son meant to hurt.

It's it's meant to moving forward.

I'd like to to demystified something for you.

I want I want Frank feedback from everyone and I get it about enough.

I don't know if you know like you might have a fart about what does ascentra credit from the gym and search up if I'm so this is like Lisa call The Crush of eagles.

I'll get you across to the yes be prepared to be crushed.

Candy Crush don't make it on the executive or learn.

Learn how not to feel crushed vs.

So it's not exactly 15 but just a rat king by TM ever.

The people who I have the highest requirement self emptying of a book together for a longest.

So I think I don't think it's like this all everywhere in Shopify.

How does are there particular? Particular books particular types of training exercises that are used with in Shopify to help people take ownership of their internal State or the view feedback is a gift to that people listening might be able to use or Explorer think about in some way the company is there be a very different companies have defensive personality traits testing kind of things that they like show me 5/8 pay partial to a system called Enneagram and you can I just had my first Enneagram type of last week and you are a 8 I appear to be a loyal skeptic 6 allow interesting Aspen isn't very very well for us like internal system.

You can actually see that you're going with everyone else and end until a tattoo like how like what nuances that means.

How to hook together for instance, So that's one thing why personality test so interesting is Faye it doesn't matter which one it is after you kind of do one is already kind of teaches you that hey, wait a minute second.

The way I'm wired is different from the people around me and I think this is so fruitful off of Discovery, especially early in your career, right because I got a lot of people get high like average age of something by study 29, I think so we get to Korea and because the thing that you want to accomplish and this is really the goal of all of internal programs.

Does he want to take people for me find out what parts of what kind of Areas, we have a fixed mindset on and try to get people to become 222 Aquia growth mindset.

Right just think of intelligence is something I can be trained think of their skill as a Pokemon not as something static and Ben someone comes and tells you to do something you could have done better.

That's not someone finding out that you're not as good as you thought that's actually a teacher.

And once people acquire his girlfriend, so I don't know on that lease a number of different trades.

Usually they arrive to like they make it very very far.

They can have these like 10 years of a career in an in one Yonder on the wall clock and I'm at that sets itself is a wonder what kind of Fame Monument happens? How how would you suggest that people acquire a growth mindset of his their books? I don't know if I haven't read Angela Duckworth Facebook greatest number of times, but there are number of books that talk about the importance of growth at Foster and growth vs fixed mindset in child-rearing and you shouldn't say your ass you are so smart.

You should say you worked really hard and did a good job in so far because inevitably if they have what's perceived to be a failure make mistakes.

It's then not indicative of them being stupid, but rather it's something related to a friend or chance that they can play a part in resolving Improvement, but if we're talking about Let's just say there's there are any number of people certainly listen to the podcast.

You know, I like I'm sure I have a fixed mindset somewhere but I don't I don't I don't know if it's a blind spot.

I don't know where how I would spot it and how do I fix it? What would your thoughts be? I think that it's a really really good question.

I wish I had a better answer.

I do find that counteracts original book called mindset is probably still the best sauce.

This d w e c k.

W because he's quite a fan of I'm a big fan of a book.

It's at least talk Sephora Ferry and I would have upset after seeing the Verde High super successful Executives who come to Shopify and we'll have to go catch up with her for a long time and then they end up reading the book and you know what? I was actually fixed mindset don't know about Like this free faints and it's like it really irks me now or I'll have it.

It's it's not something you can over completely overcome, but it's something that just having my witness.

Is this really powerful.

And also if you are if you have diarrhea Parts in a company, even if I poke does nothing for you if you'll allow me to be a much better leads to host people because it's like just priming you to detect a fixed mindset talk about people and pointing it out is hugely beneficial.

So when I want to know an observation that may or may not be true, but it it seems to me that the discussion of fixed and growth mindset ghost appears quite well with any Rim also Enneagram, by the way.

I was introduced to buy Drew of Dropbox I have and I was always skeptical and I still am so Skeptical of certain aspects of Enneagram which I think actually mean the nine pointed.

So they're nine different types and there's a lot of discussion of three different books expert about Enneagram.

But like you said is your in your commentary about Enneagram, it's it's not necessarily the specifics of the sort of business acceptable horoscope that you got it's it's the fact that you begin to look at relating to other people and your weaknesses and or fixed mindsets differently and I found it very useful.

I had my I'm going to have will my girlfriend get her typing and I'm I'm going to have all of my voice to their typing also just so they think with an awareness about interactions through that lens exact content, Maybe.

Get a 50% Callahan wavy that makes sense definition of hell is meeting the best version that you could have become a fan of your life.

And so I think that one of those really really fun things about being an experience like an entrepreneur with Johnny Lightfoot If a company the koreas we have the books we read if they end up being pointed into the direction that allows us to minimize the difference between that person be able to meet and the person we are at that point of time.

I think it's time well spent and there's some key I think events in one's life that have to go for it.

I got some point.

Hopefully you realize that the people around you are very different that you have some unexplained traits in you.

Some of them being becoming big strands and some of them are weaknesses and you double down his friends and you you try to look around your weaknesses and buy way later life at my text to flip this one says which is gets really weird.

But that's another one of those kind of things miss it up a wakening to a growth mindset is is it is never one of us life events, I think and so this event matter because what you're building eventually is like some kind of path that allows you to wake up smarter every day.

I'm done.

If you do if your I figured you get there really really powerful things happen suddenly, you know jumping into like a completely new job that you have no qualification for suddenly doesn't sound scary anymore.

I mean it it probably still does a little bit but the challenge and the thrill of it all of the sounds real I could fail I canno have to I have to grow to make this book extra become shooting motivating and then and I think that one of the most amazing things but anyone can go through and come to come to analyze is to like this is a variation on the theme of going on a journey doing hot pink surrounded by friends right company building is one of those things often travel is another one spots are really good at these kind of things.

I love tacos opinion on it was like that.

I would definitely say that so, you know variations on this team is what you want to prepare for.

I want to come back to you something you mentioned earlier that I think is very very relevant here.

So you talked about try to tie a few different things together.

We talked about taking risks and looking for opportunities for massive impact.

You also talked about how you have looked at certain opportunities are transitions as opportunities for learning and that you've made a lot of mistakes, but it seems to me that you even in some ways optimized for Learning and I just want to highlight for For folks listening.

I'll just to remind myself that this is something that comes up quite frequently with people who seem to just step up to bat and hit home run after home run.

If you really dig under the hood that's not necessarily the case, but for instance of people who are in any number of different fields, whether it's Scott Adams and Dilbert or some of the investors, I deeply respect that Marc Andreessen has been on on the podcast they talk about combining rather than trying to be saying the top 1% in the NBA just very hard to do and I'm very attribute defendant.

You could be say top 10% rayon top 25% and things that are rarely come by and try to computer science and law it could be Warren Buffett value investing and public speaking.

He says the the best investment I ever made was in the eighth Dale Carnegie public speaking course because it magnifies everything else that you do.

And so there's the combining of skill sets that are really combined and as Scott is also written about quite extensively and I agree with that if and I'm paraphrasing here so I might be mixing and matching a little but if you optimize for learning new skills and developing new relationships that transcend anyone give project.

It's really difficult to fail completely right instead of the you end up cumulate in these skills and relationships that then help for you to combine these different disciplines in unique ways said that that I just want to mention because it's it's it's tempting and debilitating to think that you have to be the absolute best to help 1% X and when you when you really look at people whether it's all the others billionaires a magazine covers of what have you that's not necessarily the case.

Not agree more with you and it's interesting because I almost have two phases to my life in this regard to write because I really was trying to become I don't know.

I don't know if it was trying to become the best Pokemon ever but I certainly was making up at 4.

You know, like my life was completely revolved around writing code understanding more of it then and then just being very good at Mastery anyways, and then this situation that happened again, I had to pause that bird and have to go into business and I ended up really liking some of the aspects of it.

I really pay voted to I'd like to phone from someone who's going to try to get I would like to understand hundred percent of a field to I want to as quickly as possible honest and 80% of every field red and that's how I like it way better on this side, and I'm eternally thankful for having realized because it's it is it actually doesn't take that long to Avenue Road in the type of investment office and I'll try to come and see you on this but it doesn't take long to to to understand the first 80% of of of of any number of he has red and but of course you can't understand babe.

So every field it says too many so you'll follow your interest.

Romantically and and then you find out exactly what what you just said and this is something you know, it's worth looking into the shop.

If I Universe they're the people are really successful people who usually have some multiple sclerosis and combine them into some kind of new product.

It's like an obvious example, is that boosted boards? Right? Like he is like electrical engineers who also like skateboarding is combined was to fix a battery into a skateboard.

And so it's really really really hard to be the best in the world at a single discipline.

But as soon as you start overlaying like three different interests you make Pokemon inspired jewelry or something you can make the best Pokemon inspired jewelry pretty quickly.

And so if you came up with that, Did that's a store on Shopify millions of success stories and been at an attempt at success stories read.

This is honestly the most interesting fact about of Shelby fires is really the receivers rabbit like lettuce resume out for a second because it's it's really dear to me but it's also at a state that a lot of people don't really quite appreciate all the Premiership is a crisis right now.

It's it's a complete counter-narrative what most people do most people think but right now new company formation is at lowest points ever been Gen X sports success.

I started a lot less companies or company's when is parents and Millennials are lawyer yet.

That's where it's at least entrepreneur generation so found And the bananas are going to like a company's better LLC formation of fall classes in the United States over time it if I went to look at the graphs today, like they are just bad day looking like a tank.

It's especially since 2005 f260 baby getting financial crisis 75.

So, it's bad.

I'd tell me to wish I wish I wish you would know.

It's like I know cuz I'm contemplating factors.

Like one thing is you just don't eat too many copies of everything anymore like back in the day you probably visited that you lived in a smaller Community you bake one, you saw hey, it's like What like some kind of hot best or do you know some kind of you know business you've never seen before you say? Hey, I might be able to do that back home.

And that's a new company right now.

Everything's franchise doesn't like the Central West End that it's a it's a lot harder to do these kind of businesses.

But the same things going on internet to swallow tried as much as a possession in Novi have one section that haven't won one search engine and so on so it's just harder to start businesses.

At and like you do it you kind of have to clock in in the top percentile of a field or at least an intersection of a fear of multiple files to import egg and Entrepreneurship and that's I think that's not good.

Right? I mean if you would give me like he has like two versions of about choose one one in which is common and easy and straightforward and and one bed isn't like a like a man who does who takes the one where is how would you make it? How would you make it easier weather in the US or maybe not Canada specific could be but is the is there anything that you do to? Increase the number of entrepreneurs and why is important is it important? I mean, that's a good question.

I think should be studied.

I mean one thing if you if you look at this computer from an economic perspective, if you if you if if you think that you need to provide employment to two people you should want calculator companies are not going to blow everyone wear today.

I think everyone must answer this.

It's we need millions of 1020 people companies as a PS5.

It's almost everyone is employed by smoke em, if if you don't get back to the numbers so small business going away, but that's for Stephanie Air Force into the opposite direction.

So how would you do it? I mean one thing is.

This is actually real pop in the United States.

But that's your problem everywhere as licensing.

Like it.

It's it's a crazy situation that I can get a laptop and start 15 billion dollar shopping by and not need to ask no one.

But if I want to become a hairdresser, I need to get a license for it right now.

I need to go for like us in many places and you can't because for all these reasons so that's kind of one of us are two things that people have to have a look at but it's just fiction like how how difficult is Italy how many things do you have to understand to start an online business? I guess you remember this.

Even before that when I was taking a stab at a few businesses all of which self-immolated but just setting up a merchant account.

I remember I thought today was a huge it was a complex and usually involve task to post a $30,000 bond to get a merchant account.

That's not ever all the capital.

I had so chubby by sonta solution to this problem because it's much more Global and take a problem.

But the retailer is one of the most accessible parts of Entrepreneurship and that's where the ultra vires like try to take the learning curve of off of a taking in entrepreneurship building on Limestone and distances and make it as flat as possible.

So as many people Can succeed right? That's that's been going on for last.

What is it? 14 years now? I think this might be a good place to chat about the build a business competition to build the business competition.

We were talking about to smoothing the path removing impediment starch partnership.

You also have incentives and incentives are also important.

What is the build a business competition go back to where do you have to be to work at 9? So at this point if I was completely Running on Fumes, that's like my We are completely out of the things didn't work.

Like you asked me earlier.

Like I didn't look like the company out of invoke, right? It wasn't like I had the numbers and people that selling things and it was valuable to them, but there was no real business being built around it and it it kind of artist and function my father-in-law was gracious enough to give me a check every we could run up a while so so bad that stage and and then he said he would do that for certain time and by that by the end of it for you kind of have to figure out what to do at this point between a talking and the reason why again, you see the goodness of the way you would do it for a week in this book is like what you were talking about.

I just building up like a business and then actually doing other things like this.

I was seeing people doing this on Shopify, but it was like this is explored.

Form of you know, what you can do online people people should know about this that this is what some people do and you should obviously tell people that that's what people do on Shopify until this kind of thing.

So we had this conversation I've ever said my boat but we have this conversation and you know, how come you overcome the built-in fear of failure, but everyone's running around with everyone that so many people come to me come to you and say one day.

I'm going to start my own business and what about today today? And I was always kind of reasons and I think I'm looking for a real boss.

You just should we need to test this by really intend to buy some paper and temperature I said you should like I don't know if you should give away like a MacBook Pro as you did what you always did in our phone call to side like you care about MacBook Pros and then second some if you want anyone to notice you need to go.

Like I have a date spots in times of Priceless infantry.

This is probably easier to say on your side Diamond Street past OSHA timer the exact block of our having this conversation.

Thank you for checking each other on to make something big and what ended up what would the end up doing instead of? Going to take the last hundred thousand dollars in the bank and then just put it up as a competition and say whatever is going to build the biggest business like stuff like from starting now in the next 6 months is going to just get the check.

Mitch's at this point I said this is either going to work and then we'll make the money for competition to do then give to people or companies bankrupt any ways in which case, you know, I'll do that.

And some other way, but you did and I think for some contact a few you haven't even when your time's end up talking about it because of us like surprises like tiny.

Start up in Canada putting up something that's beyond like every business plan competition in terms of prize money right out of this is a pretty stunning.

Ammonia biggest ever has a huge success exactly like super confident that it would be a big success.

Thank you for this because it's it's been really it's been a really awesome to watch also a year after year as it is grown and evolved soda.

You could give some examples but from the beginning right Witcher, we're not entirely sure I'm going to tell if weed was going to come from but this is an existential bat anyway, but like you said it's like they're up.

There are other good inherit issues that if we don't do it not clear what the picture is going to look like and then you flash forward and udinese build a business competitions the mansion from The Great Gatsby with DiCaprio and do other people flying all over the world and you have a Tony Robbins coming in to Mentor the finalists and so it took me to get everyone to Fiji to go to his place and be alright and just say it's it's been so much fun to watch and Fantastic job of executing and its end up coming full circle.

Also as I'm considering with the audience that I have what what could I do potentially competition wise you guys are taking the ball run with it and have done this so many years now like hey, which lawyers does she think about doing something like this and you have the prize money, but then you have the putting together of a competition the of this complexity which is no joke and no joke Evie estate sale in every province in Canada has completely different Los Chavez you everyone to come in as he is this a game of chance you or is this a game of skill because then which is actually an interesting question for you because we're honest answer is like chance I mean confused about this, but it's like 99% That's right.

Like you can predict all this kind of things which happen to gents by of its but she left her success.

So yeah, it's amazing.

People loading weather in San Francisco who launcher for iPads and so I realized is iPad Mini cases just like a phones and so they got together with some traditional book bind us and makes what makes the most skin looking like beautiful like it was really just what and whatever his case for iPad.

Nothing big gave soda Flyers to everyone waiting in line whenever on the Apple Store for iPad could launch survey people brought about it and they both want to feel competitive competitiveness wanted to end a fantastic story vasodilator picture of a fifth President Obama V still the case picture.

Of course, they used to be a successful in everyone on fan mocking to Ben and I think actually goes back to sort of her thing of it really excite me about the fact that come from all this kind of thing not just was this an entrepreneur success story for 4/4 bam and they got a $100,000 check in there and they also quadruplets or even beyond the amount of professional book binder in the San Francisco Bay Region again, like this was something like this in the area of each had a lot of bookbinding tell him that then that was Ministry and that's not an industry anymore because it's just not done manually anymore.

But they got people out of retirement to come back Megan's iPad cases and it just a little industry exists them not to talk about we don't have to get into all the specifics of of a ton of them.

But I was very curious from the first competition to see at what can people do what can people actually do it in a 6-5 people are creating multimillion-dollar businesses Ground Zero and it's been really inspired me to watch and inspiring.

Just because of the size of the variety.

That having been said one of the things I look forward to every year when you guys are are running the business competitions is what patterns War merch he has used you begin to spot and this is much like I feel like with my audience from say the 4-Hour Work week or the the the the millions of entrepreneurs who allow me to hadn't recognized because I just have the 3004 view on my audience show me things that are coming right? It's like the heck was William Gibson Neuromancer.

So that future is already here just not evenly distributed.

So you see these patterns that are sort of this like smoke signal in the distance and then five years later.

It's everywhere and with Shopify for instance.

I remember the first year that a number of the category winners because they're a different categories right now.

So it's not it's not all or nothing a term that at this point in the competition there a difference.

Would you call it Industries? Add a category which which gives him more people a chance to win and it's okay.

So I'm making this number up.

It's like three out of the six used to Kickstarter.

That's interesting and it's looking at the different tools and different approaches different tactics and strategies that seem to be used with with great efficacy.

Each year is also something that I have really look forward to this goes beyond the two of us into the approach I think and this is actually bad.

I feel like I like the most fun if I'm from bompton us because he's the best like, I mean first time I've been category spelled like baby always had some kind of fantastic inside but that they kind of adding to this exploration about how to build companies in this digital age.

So so in the kicks.

One thing the question I always had this like what's kickstarter it says valuable or was it that they had to put a second video on the website that are the founders of a company have to explain why this product needed to exist right as it seems like such a like, why does not every product in the world have some have half a man to declare why they felt the sting needed to be created if I can only get that from the people who happen to go on kickstarter.

com and most of them ended up figuring out approaches to Billy about storytelling Lakewood.

What's the story I go to history is the story of revitalization of a craft right which may be connected with the beautiful object that came out of it.

Let's go to DMV you would write a story and then the night walk around with my daughter case like someone will talk about it.

I would talk about how about to have this had made.

Because I owned part of that story and that's a great thing that lived a great thing as bad things about a powerful and book actually not changed in the internet age.

Should I give you all kind of story tell us or at least people will listen to most of the stories is how language developed you know, they give you storytelling creatures and it just is rediscovering with medium of the medium is something that is really really fascinating in this if you if you look back to the the two books you mentioned when I'm feeling it influence or you're looking at and grows book also not snapshot in time dependent on the technology of right now, these are principles and I've also thought about Kickstarter also intend other platforms like it as a talent assessment for some of the basic competencies, that one will need.

In the company, they would then subsequently belt.

If you cannot sell your product in a video and then Marshall resources and try to Garner PR.

However, you take your approach to raise a potentially nominal sum of money for a first manufacturer.

Unlike how can you ever have the confidence that you would be able to proceed and build something larger over an extended.

Of time when I think it's a it's a it's an audition in a sense and then h